Samurai in Open Terrain

[Trine]

A little confused about this so I thought one of you more intelligent people might be able to clear it up for me. Samurai get a +20% bonus when fighting in open terrain (like Plains, grasslands, etc.) But those same open terrain types automatically penalize all units by 33%, right? So does that mean a Samurai just gets a slightly lighter penalty? (-13% instead of 33%?) Or do they ignore the penalty and actually get a bonus? (Which would translate to +53% compared to other units).

 

[Sarda]

If you had the drill promotion you'd effectively be adding +20% to -33% so yes its a lighter penalty.

 

[Trine]

That's kinda what I figured but I wanted a second opinion thanks ^_^

 

[Feyd Rautha]

By the way... the -33% is only when defending. So you could say that the Samurai has a +53% bonus when attacking in open terrain and a -13% chance defending. Seeing as any city making a Samurai will at least have a barracks you can add Shock 2 right away to make it 20% higher.

 

[Venereus]

By the way... the -33% is only when defending. So you could say that the Samurai has a +53% bonus when attacking in open terrain and a -13% chance defending. Seeing as any city making a Samurai will at least have a barracks you can add Shock 2 right away to make it 20% higher.

Wait, so you get a bonus if you attack a unit that's on open terrain? Do all terrain-related promotions in Civ V apply for both defensive and offensive moves?

 

[Drago Askani]

There is a Policy that adds a +33% defense (not sure if its only open plains defense or all defense) but with it you will at least negate the open field negative.

 

[Lancor]

Wait, so you get a bonus if you attack a unit that's on open terrain? Do all terrain-related promotions in Civ V apply for both defensive and offensive moves?

Sure!

 

[Krill]

Sure!

Source?

 

[Lancor]

Source?

Well, the manual and common sense.

For example:

"Drill I
Unit Types: Melee
Prerequisites: None
Effects: +20% combat strength when fighting on rough terrain (Hills, Forest, or
Jungle)."

It doesn't limit the ability to only defend or attacking, like in Civ IV most abilites did.

And if it wouldn't work that way, we had almost no promotions which boost our attacking strength... I can see nothing but "Siege" against cities or some promotions of unit specific type, for use against other types. ( Ambush II
Unit Types: Melee, Air
Prerequisites: Ambush I
Effects: +25% combat strength vs. armored units. )

Also some promotions mention defense.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

You don't get a bonus... I was just saying a Samurai would be "effectively" +53% (yes it's the defender that takes the penalty though). What is it with us Civ folks and not inferring meaning when something is said generally and not specifically

 

[Necro-]

also, in the 2k stream video, greg took the rough terrain bonus and plopped the unit on a hill saying he'll hold it until his other samurais get the chance to heal - holding it referring to defending.

 

[Lancor]

also, in the 2k stream video, greg took the rough terrain bonus and plopped the unit on a hill saying he'll hold it until his other samurais get the chance to heal - holding it referring to defending.

because while defending this tile it's assured that his unit got the bonus.
But if this drill promoted unit would attack another unit which sits on a hill, he would get the bonus from his promotion too, what's so complicated about it? :x

 

[King Jason]

also, in the 2k stream video, greg took the rough terrain bonus and plopped the unit on a hill saying he'll hold it until his other samurais get the chance to heal - holding it referring to defending.

If you're using that to claim the bonus is defense only.. it's entirely circumstantial. Obviously a unit defending on rough terrain will always be "fighting" in rough terrain.

His strategy at the time was one of defense, period, and innately, rough terrain offers better defense than flat terrain.

I don't believe there's anything to suggest the bonus doesn't apply on the offense as well. In fact, like the above poster mentioned... the fact that we have no direct "attack" increase suggests that the promotions apply to both.

Attacking or defending in rough terrain, you have an X% bonus, etc.

 

[Venereus]

Civ IV is the precedent that leads us to believe it doesn't apply on the offense. If the wording isn't clear enough, one tends to cling to old tested beliefs.

 

[Necro-]

no, i mean that its for both attack and defense.

 

[King Jason]

Civ IV is the precedent that leads us to believe it doesn't apply on the offense. If the wording isn't clear enough, one tends to cling to old tested beliefs.

Meh. I personally don't think the wording isn't clear. A Combat bonus while fighting in a terrain type.

When One unit is on a hex, and another unit attacks that hex, the "battlefield" is that hex. Both units are fighting on that hex. If it's a hill or a forest... then both defender and attacker in this scenario are "fighting on rough terrain"

Civ4: Guerilla I: "+20% Hills Defense"
Civ4: Guerilla III: "+25% Hills Attack"

Civ5: Drill I: "+20% Combat Strength when fighting on rough terrain"
Civ5: Survivalism: "+50% Defense"
Civ5: Nationalism: "+25% Attack bonus in friendly territory"

So... I personally think it's pretty clear. When you compare the different types of wording, if the bonus was specific to attack or defense only, it would've specified.

 

[Venereus]

Meh. I personally don't think the wording isn't clear. A Combat bonus while fighting in a terrain type.

When One unit is on a hex, and another unit attacks that hex, the "battlefield" is that hex. Both units are fighting on that hex. If it's a hill or a forest... then both defender and attacker in this scenario are "fighting on rough terrain"

Civ4: Guerilla I: "+20% Hills Defense"
Civ4: Guerilla III: "+25% Hills Attack"

Civ5: Drill I: "+20% Combat Strength when fighting on rough terrain"
Civ5: Survivalism: "+50% Defense"
Civ5: Nationalism: "+25% Attack bonus in friendly territory"

So... I personally think it's pretty clear. When you compare the different types of wording, if the bonus was specific to attack or defense only, it would've specified.

What you say makes sense, but it coud still be bad wording (in the manual at least). Guess I'll just play and see.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Meh. I personally don't think the wording isn't clear. A Combat bonus while fighting in a terrain type.

When One unit is on a hex, and another unit attacks that hex, the "battlefield" is that hex. Both units are fighting on that hex. If it's a hill or a forest... then both defender and attacker in this scenario are "fighting on rough terrain"

Civ4: Guerilla I: "+20% Hills Defense"
Civ4: Guerilla III: "+25% Hills Attack"

Civ5: Drill I: "+20% Combat Strength when fighting on rough terrain"
Civ5: Survivalism: "+50% Defense"
Civ5: Nationalism: "+25% Attack bonus in friendly territory"

So... I personally think it's pretty clear. When you compare the different types of wording, if the bonus was specific to attack or defense only, it would've specified.

In your Civ 5 examples I agree with you that it is clear if you infer that

Drill I means Attacking or Defending (either way you are fighting)
Survivalism is just defense.
And Nationalism is just attack.

If you are of the camp that thinks "fighting on" means attacking only then you are not reading the clear definition (based on your post I think we're in agreement though).