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[R&F] Samurai is still complete rubbish

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Pietato, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    I think they did Berserkers well in Civ 5. They aren't particularly strong themselves, but they come really early compared to the unit they replace, which seems somewhat historically accurate. I know Berserkers don't replace anything in Civ 6, but maybe making them come at the same time as Swordsmen or soon after, instead of as late as they do, would be appropriate.
     
  2. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    that would make sense considering all other uniques work that way...
     
  3. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well the legion does cost more production to build. Also there was once where I used Legions to mass chop other legions and that sent my GPT plummeting so I had to go conquer something. And I conquered Greece and stole their culture.
     
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  4. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    This game can be so a-historical some times :lol:
     
  5. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Both Norway and Japan get faith bonuses so getting Grandmaster's chapel to rush-buy is not outside the realm of possibility.
     
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  6. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Well... I will suggest that every standing samurai gives a continuous culture equals to a portion of their strength. And this culture can give rise to tourism... Standing units instead of improvements/districts that give an edge in cultural victory. Upgrading them cancels the benefit. Does it sound interesting?

    Enemies can kill these samurai off to prevent their tourism from being too op. A higher defensive strength can be a balance to this.

    Thats what Samurais are doing actually. They represent a cultural and spiritual heritage in Japan rather than being really great at war. So...if making them far too excellent in battle is unrealistic, maybe we can try some other bonuses they can offer. UU, afterall, are not combat restricted.
     
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    It'll be tough for the poor Samurai to hide from the enemy, what with their location being tracked by global travel agencies.
     
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  8. isau

    isau Deity

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    When I modded the Samurai and Berseker this is what I did to them:

    upload_2018-3-27_13-56-40.png

    upload_2018-3-27_13-56-59.png

    I just noticed I have the Berserker written as "move and attack" rather than "move after attacking" which is how the ability actually works. What I wanted to do was allow them to attack twice on the same turn. But I couldn't seem to make that work, even though there's a unit ability promotion that does the same thing. Could have been error on my part or maybe just doesn't work.

    The original design of the Samurai was going to make them invisible when on coastline or inside forest/rainforest. But the Stealth mechanic doesnt let you get that specific, so I just gave them Stealth all the time. Adds some drama to having borders near Japan during the Medieval era for sure.
     
  9. Kzell11b

    Kzell11b Chieftain

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    I'd be down with that if it was a bit more consistently applied in Civ VI.

    This is of course not the same as a unit, but something I enjoyed from Alpha Centauri is that every faction had both of course explicit buffs but also explicit debuffs. The same principle was applied to the various Social Engineering choices. I miss the challenge that came from that kind of "take the bad with the good" design philosophy.
     
  10. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    Putting all the military science units (except for the impi) with the apprenticeship tech would do a lot of good. Apprenticeship only requires currency (comes sooner), isn't out of the way, and is thematically linked to all those units (real warriors need a good of steel after all).

    Also, the berserker needs to get rid of its -7 strength while defending weakness. Does any other unit have an added weakness that isn't systematic?
     
  11. Karpius

    Karpius King

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    How does one "consistently" apply all these variables across a game with the scope of Civ6? For balance, it would be best to have no Unique Units or, at best, simply give them the same values as the standard counterpart, but at least the flavor of the uniqueness still exists. But everyone wants their own special tweaks and then arise the complaints of balance issues.

    That defensive weakness works well with a unit such as that. It is historical and balances against the incredible offensive ability.
     
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  12. adajaga

    adajaga Chieftain

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    For flavor and mechanics and made them unique Musketman that unlock for Civil Service.

    The expensive hard build:
    Make them replace Musketman, so upgradable from swordsman but they don't get the early gunpowder unit.

    Garbage tech:
    Unlock with Civil Service, to synergize with half-price theatre squares.
     
  13. Cedbird77

    Cedbird77 Warlord

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    I agree. I played Japan only once months ago before I got really good at the game. It was my first real super runaway Civ. So I quit the game because I was so far ahead so quickly.

    The district bonuses I think caused me to ne so dominant. So.... Having the Samurai with the above benefits is a powerful addition to the other Civ benefits.
     
  14. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    I want to be able to actually build things with a coastal start and little to no forests.

    In the meantime, I've also nerfed Magnus into 25% only.
     
  15. Bizrock

    Bizrock Chieftain

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    Just put Samurai in the Cultural tree instead of the Science, and done!
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    True.

    I mean Civ 4's civs did not have many major differences, but they still managed to make it horrifically imbalanced with quechas and stuff.
     
  17. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    What even is this...?

    Look...Samurai sucks. Berserker and Georgia's unit suck even more. Berserker gets annihilated on defense, and does not even have more attack than a Knight.
     
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  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Are Samurai known for their stealth? I thought that was Ninjas.

    A gripe I have with both units is they seem to be largely ahistorical. AFAIK, Samurai rode horses and used bows, or largely used spears, when they were actually at war. The sword thing and bushido thing emerged later when they largely became managers and tax collectors rather than being active soldiers. I'm also not sure berserkers as an occupation was ever a thing, but I haven't researched it - Norway might be better just having Vikings.
     
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  19. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    The other funny thing about these UUs is that they all upgrade to Musketman..... which isn't even that far away from Military Tactics. This means they might even obsolete before you do anything with them.
     
  20. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I've been holding off buying R&F until the patching settles down, England gets some love, and Mac catches up. But all this talk about Norway is just making me want to buy R&F and start playing Vikings and Shoguns.

    If it was up to me, I'd maybe get rid of the Beserkers negative combat bonus, and I think Samurai would be a lot scarier if they had a bit more movement and or could be bought with faith. But overall these units are fine in the context of their Civs.

    Berserkers:

    - If you're playing the Vikings, your very early turns will be focused on Longboats and the Ships, Holy Sites and Harbour tech paths. Once you've sorted those, you'll really don't have time to be mucking around with Swords or Knights. Instead, you'll need to focus on the Commercial Hub and IZ tech paths. Berserkers are therefore well placed in the tech tree for Norway.

    - Berserkers are similar to Redcoats techwise. What I mean is, you can't pre-build Redcoats, but they unlock in the same tech that unlocks Cavalry, and those can be pre-built. So, you pre-build Cav (via Horsemen), upgrade them when you unlock Redcoats, and then attack with Cav and one or two Redcoats. With Berserkers (and Samurai as a point), they unlock with Pikes. So, you pre-build Pikes (via Spears), upgrade, and then go on the offensive with Pikes, Longboats and one or two Berserkers.

    - Remember, if you send you Spearmen to clear barb camps, then they should all have at least one promotion, which should cancel out their vulnerability to Melee.

    - Berserkers are almost like light cav given their movement in enemy territory and ability to pillage. They are a little squishy because of negative to defence, but you offset that with the ability to pillage farms and keep attacking, ability to quickly retreat given their extra movement and free embarking, and potentially back-up from anti-cav / pikes.

    - Berserkers (and Pikes, and Longships) benefit from Oligarchy and its legacy card. I don't think Knights etc. can benefit from Oligarchy.

    Samurai:

    - If you're playing Japan, you'll want to bee-line districts to benefit from extra adjacencies and district discounts. So, you'll grab encampments, and then focus on theatres and holy sites, then commercial hubs and IZs (or flip that around slightly). Again, you don't have time to be mucking around with Swords or Knights. Samurai again are well placed in the Tech Tree for Japan.

    - Again, Samurai can be supported by Spears to Pikes. Additionally, Samurai should be stronger because you should have Encampments and Barracks, which you can build more cheaply, given them a better experience profile and hopefully Great Generals as well.

    - Samurai will also get combat bonuses on coastal tiles, which can further buff them. Again, Samurai also benefit from Oligarchy and its legacy card; I think Knights etc. do not.

    [Apologies if I'm wrong about Oligarchy and Knights - I can't test this at the moment, but the description (and my recollection) suggest Heavy Cav don't benefit from the Oligarchy bonus.]
     
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