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San Pellegrino's Rogue State Strategy

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by SanPellegrino, Jan 24, 2002.

  1. bbaws

    bbaws Prince

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    I'm in agreement I read this post awhile ago and thought no more than "good name for an obvious strategy". Used to implement it in Civ 1 even. Not meaning to detract from your post at all, it's very concise and I'm sure those who have genuinely benefited from it have been too shy to post (why in god's name didn't I think of that myself syndrome).
    More pwer to your elbow I think of it as a rogue state now and because I have a label for it it is working even better.
     
  2. brownbomber

    brownbomber Chieftain

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    to San Pelegrino. Has your strategy ever backfired?????
     
  3. Hades

    Hades is a liar and a cheat

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    I am not San Pelegrino. But I think I have answer to your question since that has happened to me before: It backfired when the rogue state is beating everyone, and you can't take advantage of the situation because the losers are supposed to be your allies. But the time you can attack, they are already at your border with several SoD's.
     
  4. Grey Knight

    Grey Knight Old hacker

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    When they start loosing, prop them up with monetary and science support. Try and do sugical strikes on their resources (i.e. oil) to knock them back to the ancient age. Give resources to your puppets (er, allies) if they need them.

    In other words, play U.S. to their Iran :satan:

    Cheers,
    Shawn
     
  5. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    No, not really. As Grey Knight mentioned, you need to pump up your allies if necessary, even if it hurts.

    In your case, if they gang up on you, try to make peace with 1 or 2 of them at all cost!! This is only impossible if you are the biggest by far or for having a bad reputation. If they had MPPs, their neighbours will declare war on them, or you can try to goad them. Keeping the AI always busy is still the most important strategy in my games.
     
  6. TheDS

    TheDS Regular Riot

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    Brown Bomber:

    How much of a tech lead do you have? How many other civs are there? What kind of shape are you in?

    Chances are that this is a good time to use your new-found Mobilization ability. By doing this, you will increase production in your cities, but you will only be able to build units. You're going to need units aplenty anyway, and hopefully you can defeat some one and come out of Mobilization in time to build Wonders.

    Next, if there are other civs around that are worth anything, it would probably pay to get them on your side. The best option for so many opponents would be to get MPPs out of them. Each enemy who attacks you will gain a new enemy (or group of enemies). These other civs must be capable of doing SOMETHING to the enemy. If they are stuck with galleys, they are worthless, even if you give them all your techs, because they won't be able to produce enough new units to do anything but become part of enemy empires.

    If necessary, you can make Military Alliances; MPP may be too expensive in some cases.

    Now that you've given the enemy something else to do, it's time you used your units effectively. If you're alone on an island, you need to build lots of naval vessels. If you don't yet have steam, get it so you can get Ironclads. You're also going to need Riflemen, and real fast, so start upgrading your units.

    If you're not alone, you're going to need to concentrate more on defensive units to hold on to what you've got. If you have enough defensive units, then start building offensive ones. Artillery would not be a waste of money, as you can use them to bombard incoming ships and to soften incoming enemy troops.

    Use your terrain to maximum advantage, but don't set yourself up to be bypassed. I had a bunch of units waiting to be attacked, and the enemy went around them and trapped most of my army, letting them run almost unchecked into my territory. Without a few reserve units and some handy mountains and an isthmus, I woulda really been hurting.

    Attack any unit that you know you can kill without taking losses yourself. If you have a SOD sitting around, you've got to put it to use.

    If at all possible, try and take an enemy city, or deprive them of important resources. This is worth risking a few units to accomplish. Taking the enemy city will cause them to redirect the bulk of their forces to recapturing it, and also gives you a bargaining chip once they are willing to talk.

    It may be necessary to surrender a city in peace negotiations. Losing a city or two is worth getting peace from most of the enemies; you can't win the game if you get killed off. When the threat is down to a manageable level (only 1 or 2 enemies left to fight), you can push them back and take their cities, and get compensation for the territory you lost.

    Depending on your situation, you may have to make peace with everyone! Don't sweat iit. Just rebuild as fast as you can, try and turn your enemies against each other, and get ready for the next war(s).

    Good luck, and let us know how it progresses.
     
  7. Builder

    Builder Chieftain

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    I've seen this acronymn a few times, and I just can't figure it out: what the heck is a SoD?
     
  8. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    found it on poly:

    "Stack of Doom (SOD, 30 to 90+ units in one stack)."
     
  9. dayfax

    dayfax Chieftain

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    This is an excellent strategy. I had a blast the first time I did this. The only thing I would add is to make sure everyone has trade embargoes against the rogue state (great name, btw). Just to make the AI's life a little more difficult. The war may end, but those embargoes can go on and on and on.

    As for mercenary units -- I thought it would have been nice if Civ3 had the SMAC ability to lend or give units to other players.
     
  10. meldor

    meldor Deity

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    SanPellegrino,

    War weariness does not reset when you make peace. They effects go away, but the amount of weariness remains for approximately 20 turns, slowly getting smaller. If you start a second war before it is completely gone it will start at a higher level than the first time. This info was given by the developers during one of the chats. It doesn't even have to be the same civ. If war is declared on you, it actually (temporarily) decreases WW because everyone gets behind the war efforts. If you declare war it goes up.
     
  11. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    dayfax, thx :)

    well, trade embargoes are a good idea, but I often find myself broke after I got a coalition running:( But when you are able to do that it's great. With only one or two luxuries the AI is in Monarchy and communism ASAP.
     
  12. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    you're right, but when I wrote it (January) I didn't knew about it (did anyone?)

    In general, the strategies have developed a lot over the last months and putting the AI to fight is a integral part of it. Of course it wasn't in Civ2 (I just smashed everyone) and the strong Civ3 AI is most fun for me in this game (and of course using them to my advantage ;) )
     
  13. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    This is just another way the AI lets you out-maneuver it. It works quite well, and I usually don't even have to goad them into conflict.

    Case 1: One of the aggressive civs declares war against me. If I wish help, I'll sign MPP's with the other big civs around him. He's toast, and I only have to exert enough effort to gain or defend what I wish. Usually costs less than 500 gold per MPP.

    Case 2: One of the aggressive civs declares war against another civ. One starts to lose and asks me to sign a MPP. Sure, along with a ROP. And I bring in additional civs with MPPs. I now get free rein to move through the allied civ; I can again take what I want from the other civ, and if I retake a city that my ally lost, all the citizens are HAPPY! I end up with additional chunks of territory, and a weakened civ adjacent to me: can we say future conquest! :D

    Let's see what PTW does to this strategy.
     
  14. PreTzeL_22

    PreTzeL_22 Tiger Tank

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    This is an excellent example of the "Rogue State Strategy".

    I am Germany on Monarch, weak, high culture but very small empire. Persia (across the other side of the world) demands that I give them spices for free. I say no, and they declare war on me. So I get every other nation into a huge vendetta against them, and after about 10 turns I receive a message that they "have been wiped out by the rampaging French"!

    I never even saw a Persian unit..... Muhahahaha....
     
  15. Babbler

    Babbler Deity

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    Interesting idea, i think i will try it in my warlord game, where i am Japan have beaten the French out of the game, had GA with samerai get the Art of War and Sistine, making loads of gold per turn but no GL:(. Problem is that the i've got no Coal, but England has some, a few squares away. It is also my biggest competeor, 2nd in sorce. The "good" civs, Germany, China amd Presia are on or near my contentent.

    What do you think?
     
  16. Globetrotter

    Globetrotter ...wherever i may roam...

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    I tried it not a long time ago on a Deity game, where the Rogue state was the leading civ.
    In less than 10 turns, this civ was just razed by all other 15 (including me) :)
    This was repeated 3 times, and at the end, 4 top civs were out!
    So i was back in business :)
     
  17. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    civman36, if england is your direct neighbour, they are not the best pick for a rogue state, because you got to do the fighting yourself (mostly), but of course maybe it is worth it and if you can swallow them, good. But it seems you have to get coal first, without RR vs. a neighbour with RR, puh, dirty job. But when you fight make sure there is war on the other continent, too ;)
     
  18. NewDestroyer

    NewDestroyer Vegetto

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  19. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    I'm doing this in my monarch game right now because the leading Ottomans declared war on me for no good reason (lost a city too!)

    Problem is, the Ottoman empire is expanding and not shrinking! I wonder how long they can keep up... :hm:
     
  20. SanPellegrino

    SanPellegrino Wanderer

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    Hygro, I agree, a strong ottoman empire with sipahis at the right time (in their GA?) can be very hard to overcome. It is a long way to tanks and the ottomans can do a lot of fighting until then. I guess you have to do some fighting yourself before they swallow all the weak civs.
     

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