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SANCTA Embassy & Intelligence

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I am interested in Sancta’s offer – but I still think we get more from following through with Team Cav.

    Going with Sancta
    Spoiler :
    Sancta’s offer is TKY for free and guaranteed elimination of Cav’s stacks. If we follow up we could take a few Cav cities – but how far can we really go? I think we could take the cell of cities East of TKY but probably could not push much further than before Cav could whip a monster defensive stack. Sancta could harass Cav’s coast – but any taken cities will have to be raised as they could not realistically be defended. It also opens up our southern coast which would be very vulnerable to an attack by Team Cav.

    At the end of the day Sancta will only lose a small portion of their massive production advantage and we will face an ugly war with Cav. Sancta can provide some help in this war – but ultimately we will do most of the fighting. Cav will take a major hit but we won’t be able to roll them. At this point, I see Santca as the big winner as they can continue developing while Cav and us get bogged down in a long war and neglect infrastructure. What about this indicates sancta would become like a vassal – not much in my mind.

    If we do go down this path we might want some sort of agreement that allows us to station units close to marginally defended Sancta cities for a significant period of time. Essentially this allow us to hold a gun to Sancta head so that they can’t break the treaty down the line. I am very worried about this as – if we are at war with Cav – our rear will be undefended.


    Going with Cav
    Spoiler :
    If we continue attacking Sancta with Team Cav, we stand a very good chance of gaining the cell of cities including TKY and DT. And if Sancta is being honest about their defensive capabilities we could possibly push even further and potentially grab the huge Olli city and Phoenix. The fact is we could make the same offer that is currently on the table to Sancta a few turns down the line. We backstab Cav in exchange for Sancta essentially becoming a vassal. We end up with more cities and a more reliable (ie weaker) vassal.

    The problem of course is keeping good enough relations with Sancta as we move forward with Cav.


    What to say to Sancta?
    Spoiler :
    Cav scout has done great negotiating and I recommend a chat along these lines.
    Our team likes the general outline of your realignment, but we need to do a lot of debate before we have anything fully set in stone. Some naysayers have also popped up and we allow a very deliberative process – no war czars in Kazakhstan sadly. Either way, it sounds like you are abandoning Zero anyway. So if we end up not going down this path, the next turn pretty much plays out the same way. We will continue to bombard Phoenix for the sake of keeping up appearances should any unknown Cav spies be lurking. For your info – we considered trying to coordinate a naval assault, but it would be pretty hard to pull off now that you have rifles.

    Another point to discuss is resource exchanges. What could Sancta offer? If we cut ties with Cav we will have a lot of unhappiness.



    In light of Sancta’s messages it seems that they have overinflated our military capacity. Our biggest limiting factor – which I do not think the other teams are that aware of – is that we have far less ability to draft units. We have a lot coming in the next few turns but in the long term we can’t keep it up like Sancta and Cav. Also our production is anemic and they can produce units much faster than we can. Right now we have a lot of power – and we are very close to the front line. But imagine 20 turns from now when we have a battle hardened core of 30 some redcoats but we face an opposing army of well over 60 units. That will get ugly fast. We want this war to be short and sweet and we want Cav and Sancta to suffer as much as possible. A long conflict means we lose.
     
  2. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    How much should we communicate with Cav regarding our recent conversations with Sancta? I'm a bit worried that Santa will mail these transcripts to Cav in a bid to mess up our relationship.

    I think, unless we decide to screw Cav, we ought to keep them abreast as much as possible. I don't think they'll be mad. After all, we unearthed some really good intelligence tidbits (about Saturn for instance).
     
  3. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    I think there is no way we can make this relationship with Sancta work--for all the reasons Damnrunner said and more. Remember, Sancta will be an econ and production superpower if we cripple Cav. They are going to backstab us for sure.

    OUR EDGE OVER SANCTA IS EPHEMERAL!! They already have rifles and will have Cavalry in 3 turns. Then, just a few turns after that, they will have steel. Who are we kidding that they are going to "help" us dominate the map? More likely, we'll become their vassal not the other way around.

    I think though, we should string Sancta along. It would be freaking awesome if the slammed Cav's first stack and they nail each other to the wall. This will free our initial stack to attack Dragon Tears and maybe even further if we are lucky.

    Once we take Zero, I think our culture will spread around it because our other city is so close by. Then, Cav will probably take TKY, but with heavy losses. Our culture in that case dominates the valley. This is the best situation we can hope for.

    Ideally though, we don't want to lie outright to Sancta. It would be better if we can make them do what we want by acting noncommittal, and then brushing them off by saying we have too many dissidents.
     
  4. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I bet they get Cav in 2 turns - they tend to misinform about such things.
     
  5. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Well i tried to get them to start another tech since we already have beakers into MT ;) Not sure they will buy it though.
     
  6. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I'd stick with team Cav since I think they'd be more trustworthy in the long run. Very good chats with SANCTA. Our goal now should be to get what we can out of SANCTA without giving much in return but also with out backstabbing them. It's a fine line. Another goal is to get SANCTA's stack fighting team Cav's stack. Yes, we should tip team Cav off to our discussions though we need not go into many details.
     
  7. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Latest with Memphus:

    Spoiler :
    Memphus says:
    howdy!
    Jon says:
    hey how goes it?
    Memphus says:
    alright i suppose.
    Memphus says:
    just waiting for saturn to come by.
    Jon says:
    did you guys nail CAVs stack?
    Memphus says:
    yeah
    Jon says:
    nice
    Memphus says:
    one of them
    Memphus says:
    and cut theier road.
    Memphus says:
    so my team may want to maek a stand at tky
    Memphus says:
    but i told them i already commited to gifting it to you guys
    Memphus says:
    you logged in and saw i kept my word on the first part of the bargain and pulled everything back
    Jon says:
    well now you guys want to hold at tky?
    Memphus says:
    although upgrading the CGIII LB to a rifle would of been fun...
    Memphus says:
    nah...we want to gift it to you and then beat up cav
    Memphus says:
    jsut parts of the team want to try and make a stand.
    Memphus says:
    i told them it is dumb. it is far better that we work out peace.
    Jon says:
    well i know you want to draft it down first before gifting
    Jon says:
    when will that be?
    Memphus says:
    in 2-3 turns if that is fair for you guys?
    Memphus says:
    have you built the globe? does that transfer in a gift?
    Jon says:
    i think nat wonders probably get destroyed
    Memphus says:
    i think the library might? or maybe no culutral buildings go?
    Jon says:
    i dont have much experience city gifting
    Memphus says:
    me either
    Jon says:
    but my guts says nat wonders arent transferable
    Memphus says:
    yeah....most likely.
    Memphus says:
    well it has lots of other good buildings that dont go under the dice roll if you capture it.
    Memphus says:
    BTW cav offered us peace for, zero (scotland), TKY, Chai, Zhue and DT.
    Jon says:
    interesting, they didn't say anything about that to us
    Jon says:
    what does your team think?
    Memphus says:
    would rather work with you.
    Memphus says:
    i know you (cav scout) from other games & other members of kaz.
    Memphus says:
    as for cav...well oyzar quit but he was a cannon, i dont them very well.
    Memphus says:
    that and they seem to think this game is thier right to win.
    Memphus says:
    btw we found a way to get MT in 2. so we are going to do that, it gets us cavalry faster. So we can trade it to you after the TKY gift, you might want to grab sci method though, so then one of us get communism, the other physcis, to deny cav.
    Jon says:
    that makes sense
    Memphus says:
    or you grab both of those (for the spy and scientist) and we can grab bio. just need to beat cav there.
    Jon says:
    i will see what route my team wants to go
    Memphus says:
    do they even want to hit cav?
    Jon says:
    yes, but they want to make sure we arent going to far out on a limb
    Jon says:
    when we are already in a good position
    Memphus says:
    yeah makes sense.
    Jon says:
    just like you have guys that want to make a stand at tky
    Memphus says:
    yeah for sure.
    Memphus says:
    the way i see it for this though is sancta goes from a bad position to a neutral one
    Jon says:
    we have guys who want all the cities you listed above in the cav peace offer + phoenix
    Memphus says:
    and you guys go from a good one, to favorites to win.
    Jon says:
    along with tech alliance and a guarantee of joint war againts cav
    Memphus says:
    yup which we would sign on
    Memphus says:
    and the end of our partnership would be whatever clause you determine.
    Memphus says:
    so word that well
    Jon says:
    so you guys would gift Zue Cha, Chai, DT and Phoenix also?
    Memphus says:
    PM and DT i couldn't convince the team of. We have enough troops approaching to save DT.
    Memphus says:
    the other two maybe.
    Jon says:
    I can understand why you would want to keep DT, makes a good natural border
    Jon says:
    Phoenix makes sense to me as well
    Jon says:
    although we have people screaming about razing it because of the culture encroachment
    Jon says:
    Chai and Zue Cha seem to be tied to TKY though
    Memphus says:
    DT?
    Jon says:
    DT is defensible in it's own right
    Memphus says:
    chai we will lose to cav right away...so we can give that to you.
    Memphus says:
    and Zhue yeah that can be negotiated.
    Jon says:
    so we could draw a permanent boundary on an axis running from DT through the mountains to Phoenix
    Memphus says:
    that would make sense.
    Memphus says:
    we won't expand south of that all
    Memphus says:
    and everything of Cav's becomes yours.
    Jon says:
    would you agree to be reasonable with culture in phoenix?
    Memphus says:
    yes we will pull all artists out.
    Memphus says:
    and not build another culutre building
    Jon says:
    we wont get into a culture war their either, just let it stay balancedJon says:
    sorry back
    Memphus says:
    no problem
    Memphus says:
    remove the artist in pm and jsut ended turn
    Jon says:
    ok cool
    Jon says:
    that will go a long way to getting people on board
    Memphus says:
    espionage on you is also turned off now.
    Memphus says:
    our number wont go up.
    Jon says:
    we will keep our points on you for now, any change would draw attention
    Memphus says:
    fair enough.
    Jon says:
    we want to draw CAVs stack in and do the closed borders bounce still right?
    Memphus says:
    yeah that i what i was thinking?
    Memphus says:
    but they might go for chair first.
    Memphus says:
    *chai
    Memphus says:
    if they do i woudl rather gift that to you at the same tiem as TKY
    Memphus says:
    and build a road to hit thier stack
    Jon says:
    well without a stack in chai they would just dow and take it from us too
    Jon says:
    unless we hit them before they can react
    Jon says:
    ideally we attack their stack on the turn of the switch
    Jon says:
    so they have zero reaction time
    Memphus says:
    right make sense.
    Memphus says:
    so the timing will work out well
    Jon says:
    well it would be good to hit them in the open regardless of which city they are in front of
    Memphus says:
    yeah for sure!
    Memphus says:
    ok i gotta catch a flight we will chat more later!
    Jon says:
    ok later
     
  8. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    So is Sancta being investigated?
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Should we continue negotiations. Anything to throw them off guard.
     
  10. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Well Memphus just quit... if sancta doesnt get a new turn player then the game is over.
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    That would suck. But they have a pretty actively involved team, so I would think someone would step up. I imagine internal dynamics on the team also probably played factor in driving out Memphus. You would have to be pretty thin skinned to get that miffed by a few postings on the global forums. I suspect what makes being turn player "a chore" (his words) is internal dissent and 2nd guessing. That has hurt our team in the past - but now we are a happy family!

    How about this message to Sancta:

    "We understand that Sancta has some internal reorganizing to do. Keep us posted on your plans and whether you are interested in continued discussions on a peace deal. Until then, the RKEF will continue to advance."
     
  12. Jimmy369

    Jimmy369 Warlord

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    Doesn't seem to me like Sancta will flop just because they lost a turnplayer. Im sure they will find something. The fact is thought that they are unstable right now from it, though. This may set them off balance for a bit and force them to not optimize their turns like they have in the past.
     
  13. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Well, to someone only slightly paying attention the first thought is now that SANCTA can't cheat they're gonna stop playing.
     
  14. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    And the game is back on.

    Sancta indicated that their strategy is "set." I assume that means they are forgoing any peace deals with us then. We should follow up on this. I recommend the following.

    "Glad to see the game has restarted. Your global forum posting indicate that your war plans are "set." Does this mean that previous discussion on a possible land for peace deal was for naught?"
     
  15. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Hmm, seems that way to me too.

    What a surprise that another "incident" has come up where they login, logout, login, logout and get loads of nice RNG rolls in their favour. Exactly what happened when we got screwed over in our initial attack too.

    Smelt very fishy to me at the time. I wrote a long post at the time explaining how I thought they'd manipulated the stats but I can't remember if I actually posted it in the end. I think I decided not to as it would have kicked up a major stink, but now I am wondering if I should have...

    Well there you go... it is possible to cheat this way and the behaviour of logging in and out matches that. I did a detailed analysis at the time to show that all the bad roles came on cheap units that took the hit and died.

    In my view the fact that:
    a) you can cheat in this way
    b) the pattern of behaviour in combat matched how someone would play if they were cheating
    and c) the odds of this all just being down to luck are very, very low indeed

    all leads me to conclude that they WERE cheating.
     
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Yes I tend to mostly agree with Donsig and Kaleb... and Kaleb was the first to insist that SANCTA was manipulating the combat results somehow...

    The turn when the combat with Cavalieros happened Memphus logged in and out of the game like 5 times IIRC. Add that to Memphus quitting makes it seem more likely that Kaleb was right.

    I for one was not convinced at the time that there was shennanigans going on, but I am certainly more convinced now. I also think that IF they were logging in and out like that to get better RNG rolls... that should definitely be considered cheating.
    Good call Kaleb.:goodjob:
     
  17. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Lets move on. The new rules will address this.
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Wow, long time no see Kaleb and Sommers. I wonder if Hell froze over since Kaleb, Sommers and I all agree on something! Are you two gonna stick around for awhile?

    Back on topic, I don't mind if we send the note to SANCTA but I'd rather just keep fighting them.
     
  19. Jimmy369

    Jimmy369 Warlord

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    Well they can't cheat if they have been wiped out. ;) Taking tears and suing for peace looks like a good plan at the moment to me.
     
  20. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    How many turns is Cav's army from TKY?

    I don't think we are going to arrive at Dragon until the units in there are fully healed. And every turn we delay at TKY = more uber upgraded rifles to fight.

    If it takes more than 1 or 2 turns for Cav to reach TKY, we should take it IMO.

    We can always combine our army with Cav and march in a single stack on Dragon Tears.
     

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