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Sanotra's review of Religion and Revolution v1.0

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Creation & Customization' started by Sanotra, Sep 13, 2012.

  1. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    Religion and Revolution, release 1 review

    I thought it would be fun to do a quick review of how the game is playing for me so far. As you know, there are still many bugs to fix with the mod, and I want to do my part in helping this happen. Good testing is always important! Right? So I've been testing RaR, and writing down anything that comes to mind, good or bad.

    This critique/review is made up of 4 types of parts. Problems, Questions, Ideas, and Praise. Problems which have been addressed within this thread are italicized and made smaller. Ongoing discussion is not effected.

    Disclaimer: This review is not going to be a complete analysis of RaR, just the engagements of one solitary player (me), over the course of only a couple of games. I have not even reached independence yet. My first few trys at the game, I got wiped out early on as I failed to adjust to all the new content. My latest game, I am playing as the French on my New England map, on the Conquistador difficulty. The game has been awesome so far!

    --------

    Problems:
    ~ My automated scout went to visit a native village and speak to the Chief while the tribe was furious with me and therefore unwilling to communicate, trade, etc. The pop up said that the scout was met with angry faces and could not talk with the village. That's fine... but then it popped up again, and again, and again, endlessly, until I finished the turn. And then did it again throughout the next turn, until I took the scout off automation, and ended the turn.
    ~ The founding fathers might need to be reworked, but I bet thats planned. An example, John Jacob Astor (Trade) provides an expert trapper for valuable furs, but +25% reg. furs in each colony and +1 coats. Is this intentional to have him benefit both kinds?
    ~ Demand seems unplayable at the moment. The Colopedia for ex. says that my Blacksmiths, Fur Traders, and Carpenters all demand 1 coat. But my domestic market screen says only one Colonist is demanding a coat, whilst I have 2 Blksm, 3 Fur.T, and 2 Carps in the city. Why?

    ~ The system for automating your colonists seems very bugged. Here is just two examples among many. My automated Hunter will work on getting 4 valuable wood (16gold) instead of 12 furs (60 gold). That's on the same tile. My automated blacksmith will work on 4 furs (16gold) instead of 10 ore (30gold) on different tiles.
    ~ Technically it does not seem to be a big deal at all, but... The event that says the Monarch has published a piece of propaganda against cigar smoking gives a - 2 price for cigars +1 relations with king if you agree, and a -1 relations if you disagree. That's good. The only problem is the -2 price and the -1 relations are green instead of red. For me at least.

    ~More intended to be added as I progress~

    ---

    Questions:

    ~ How do I get the background music to continue playing and not pause when I enter city view?

    ~More intended to be added as I progress~

    ---

    Ideas:

    ~ Give treasures 1 strength and make them fight. Give them a gun, and have it strapped on their back when walking.
    ~ Allow an option for 2 ships at sea to trade cargo. I needed this recently, when I wanted to use a sloop for combat but he was holding coats, and I simply wanted to give the coats to a nearby merchantman. Not possible, I think, so they were both forced to go to the nearest port. The feature would also be helpful in other scenarios, like taking the cargo off of a weak and dying ship.
    ~ If troops capture a port city which enemy naval units are taking refuge in, it does not make sense for those units to vanish out of thin air and still belong to the enemy somewhere. The guy was surrounded on land, and effectively blockaded at sea, realistically no one would have escaped. So it would be awesome for those naval units to change flags/teams just as regular colonists do.
    ~ When natives offer to sell you native mercs, if you pay full price you get one mercenary, if you pay half price you get one mercenary. Wouldn't it be cool if paying full price gave you a +1 relations with the tribe offering you the mercenary?

    ~More intended to be added as I progress~

    ---

    Praise:

    ~ Thanks for making Hunters collect food as well as furs! Opens up winter play! Makes it possible to actually live, and thrive in the colder parts of the map(s).
    ~ The Shoshone indian music was a particularly good choice. I was quite surprised when I needed to trade with them, and therefore listened to the music a while. Impressive, a pleasant surprise!
    ~ The new features make the game seem much more real. By adding a lot more historically accurate content, I feel more like I am actually a colonial leader!

    ~More intended to be added as I progress~
     
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Good to hear. :)

    Well yes, we did not really have any alpha testers ... :(

    We know, that the mod is not perfect yet. :)
    (But things are getting better and the bugs get fixed.)

    We are currently working on a Release 1.1.
    (Which will only focus on bug fixes, improvements, stabilization and balancing.)

    The problem is the Automation.
    The scout will try "automatedly" to speak to the village again and again.
    He is not smart enough to know that they don't want to speak to him.

    But that is something I will check again. :thumbsup:
    (Should be easy to fix.)

    Edit:
    I have fixed that.

    I will check. :thumbsup:

    But decisions about which goods to produce are not as simple as you probably think.
    There are lots of aspects considered apart from the price of the yield itself.

    1. Can goods be processed in the city or another city.
    2. Is it needed by a productionline in the city.
    3. Is the good intended to be sold or not. (Ore is not.)
    4. Does the profession produce a second yield. (Like hunter for example also produces Food.)
    ...


    It is already in work. :thumbsup:

    You simply have not understood the system yet. :)

    You will need big amounts of settlers in a city to really generate demand.
    (Necessary for balancing.)

    You might need 4 or 3 colonists to create demand for only 1 unit of Coffee for example.
    In some cases even 10 colonists for some yields.

    Colopedia does not say "Carpenter demands 1 X".
    It says "Carpenter generally demands X".

    The actual demands of a single unit are somewhere between 0.1 X to 0.4 X.
    (Depending on the goods.)
     
  3. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    Awesome! :goodjob:

    If you don't percieve a problem with the automation system, I will try and document more detail to give you a better idea. The "problem" really does seem to be wide spread to me. I consider it a problem if the AI is doing something which seems... unintelligent. For example, having a hunter work on getting 4 valuable wood, instead of 12 furs and 6 food when the people in the colony are starving. The imbalance here could be why many of the European neighbors have the majority of their colonists fortified on top of their cities. [/QUOTE]

    Oh ok, I got you. In that case I was hoping the new feature would be a little more... beneficial. For example, my Capitol, Quebec, has 20+ citizens, all highly specialized, and the proceeds from demand are under 40 gold every turn. I would imagine that a realistic domestic market would be more beneficial (sell more) than that. IMO
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I am not saying that there might not be a problem. :thumbsup:
    All I am saying is, that the decisions are more complex than simply price.

    Well, it is all about game balance ...
    I simply did not want to create a domestic market that is too strong and makes trading with Europe unnecessary.

    Also, the benefits highly depend on the amount of different goods you supply to them.
    If you supply them just with Coffee for example, don't expect to make a lot of money.

    Also, the "upper class colonists" consume much more than simpel workers.

    Trust me, I have seen users make a lot of money with that feature. :thumbsup:
    (You simply have to use it right. Which will require a lot of Micromanagement.)
     
  5. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    I understand. That's why if I will document anything puzzling in more than just financial turns. I'll take those other factors into consideration. Thanks. I'm here to help you. :)


    Already I see that RaR has drastically changed the feel and pace of the game. I'm able to mass produce Cannons and Ships of the Line as if they were nothing. Playing TAC I considered myself very lucky to get a hold of a Privateer. Now I can pop one out of Quebec every turn. Better yet, I'll just have 10 Ships of the Line sitting off the coast of my neighbor, declare war, and sink all their ships in one move (I just now got to this point in the game). The game moves quicker, you get bigger, and you just see more with RaR, awesome! :goodjob:

    Balance comes into question, not with how much money and how many units I and my AI neighbors have, because we have roughly the same. The imbalance is if they don't use that money or units wisely. I fail to see how giving AI and me more money is going to effect balance. So long as they know how to use it. But I'll see what you say.
     
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I was not only talking about balance between AI and human.
    It is also about balance of importance between game features.

    See, there is a certain style we imagine how the mod should play like.
    If you don't like it, feel free to change it. :thumbsup:

    But trust me, the balancing of these features was very well considered.
    And it is like always, you will not make every type of player happy. :)
     
  7. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    Praise
    ~ The Shoshone indian music was a particularly good choice. I was quite surprised when I needed to trade with them, and therefore listened to the music a while. Impressive, a pleasant surprise!

    ~ The new features make the game seem much more real. By adding a lot more historically accurate content, I feel more like I am actually a colonial leader!

    Problem
    ~ Technically it does not seem to be a big deal at all, but... The event that says the Monarch has published a piece of propaganda against cigar smoking gives a - 2 price for cigars +1 relations with king if you agree, and a -1 relations if you disagree. That's good. The only problem is the -2 price and the -1 relations are green instead of red. For me at least.

    Ideas
    ~ Allow an option for 2 ships at sea to trade cargo. I needed this recently, when I wanted to use a sloop for combat but he was holding coats, and I simply wanted to give the coats to a nearby merchantman. Not possible, I think, so they were both forced to go to the nearest port. The feature would also be helpful in other scenarios, like taking the cargo off of a weak and dying ship.

    ~ If troops capture a port city which enemy naval units are taking refuge in, it does not make sense for those units to vanish out of thin air and still belong to the enemy somewhere. The guy was surrounded on land, and effectively blockaded at sea, realistically no one would have escaped. So it would be awesome for those naval units to change flags/teams just as regular colonists do.

    ~ When natives offer to sell you native mercs, if you pay full price you get one mercenary, if you pay half price you get one mercenary. Wouldn't it be cool if paying full price gave you a +1 relations with the tribe offering you the mercenary?
     
  8. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    :) No, you can't make every type of player happy. Could you point me to the XML file I must alter to change demand values from .0something to .5 or 1 for each colonist?
     
  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    CIV4UnitInfos.xml

    A few remarks:

    1. We have a discussion forum. ;)

    Bugs and ideas should be discussed there. :thumbsup:
    (I will not discuss ideas or bugs in this thread because I want to keep that all in our forum.)

    Ideas:
    [Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

    Bugs:
    [Religion and Revolution]: Bugs and Todos

    2. About doing your own changes.

    All changes you do now will be overwritten by the next releases.
    You will have to adapt these changes to your mod again.
    (Just so you know and don't complain later on.)

    If you change our base mod by yourself, you have lost all "warranty".
    I will not try to solve bugs introduced by other people.
    (I am too busy to do that.)
     
  10. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    I wouldn't hold you liable for changes I made myself. When I do play, I'm constantly messing with things in the mod folder, becoming more and more familiar with the XML files. I'm responsible for the hiccups I make, and I'll reinstall if I mess something up beyond my own ability to fix, but I'm pretty careful about not touching things I don't understand.

    As far as the thread goes, unless a forum mod thinks otherwise, I think this is a good place to put my collective thoughts instead of breaking them all into individual threads which can be time consuming to follow. But I'll do what I can for you.
     
  11. Pallando

    Pallando Chieftain

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    Hello Sanotra, can you please post your strategy when beginning a game in RaR? I'm curious to learn how an experienced player like yourself plays the game. :)
     
  12. Khan_Asparuh

    Khan_Asparuh Just a Bulgarian Eddie

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    Greetings to all !

    I haven’t posted in several years but have been following the site with interest, and after a short detour on CIV5 that has not impressed me, went back to one of the greatest game I have ever played, Colonization.

    What a delight to discover a mod (several to be honest, but RaR seems the most advanced) that improves the basic Col! I got addicted immediately.

    After a few games on Conquistador level with the English leader that gets the hammer and bells bonus, without Revolution so far (big epic maps demand a lot of investment), I would like to share a few observations.

    First of all, to the original thread starter – as in most Civilization games, forget automation. The AI is completely inapt to deal with the task. Doing it yourself is the optimal solution – that’s probably why I haven’t finished a game yet.

    Regarding goods, it does require quite some time to get used to the new ones… Too rich, I may say.

    Here are some appreciations of the different features. Keep in mind that I haven’t read all the discussion threads, some points may have already been discussed.

    1/ Learn by doing – an absolute winner, I try to use it mostly for Preachers and Senators, the most worth it units. At the same time, on a big map, you never miss a native village to train the rare specialist, it sometimes may be worth it for the first of a particularly rare profession. Still, love it!

    2/ Domestic markets – very good too, later in the game it provides very decent income, not taxed at all! The bad thing about it is the transport micromanagement, it does absolutely need improving. Can the demand be dealt with on national level? It would change a lot.

    3/ Slaves – an interesting feature, of average usefulness, only good for pioneers. They never improve, do they? I’d like to provide some bug feedback too, my game freezes if I try to use a native slave in a city and then try to pull him out, it forces me to let him run away when another colonists comes.

    4/ Natives – the new missions effects seem a little too powerful, a small gift of guns and several missions getting the defensive pact guarantee the friendship of the tribe and from this point my cities start to eat up the villages and land, and this only improves my relationship with the tribe! On the other side, given the number of native warriors running around, it is the only way to coexist with them. And the raids effects seem illogical, I have already lost several very expensive buildings to them, even while defending with success!

    5/ Cannons – I have tried to build them, they only fill my warehouses and the price to use them – in ships or in units – is too high. Can’t they act as guns, being manned from colonists? On top of all, the AI equips with cannons as mad, it seems to cripple its development severely. A balancing seems in order.

    6/ Livestock – another huge improvement, especially given the fishermen’s weakness, but a lot more is required to reduce micro. I can now see the use of ranchers, they have become premium units, but the hard limit of the butcher’s house (36 per city) is disappointing. The output of three riverside ranchers is to be taken care from up to nine butchers, for a great output but very tedious. Once again, too much micromanagement required.

    7/ Independence – the percentage of free thinkers goes up rapidly, but the king’s forces are so many! It doesn’t seem doable to resist them, though I still have to try. I fear getting overwhelmed very fast!

    8/ Education – a central feature to exploit. I often use several cities to pre-train my students only to send them to the university city and make good artisans or soldiers of them. A remark – is it a bug or a feature to be able to train a carpenter for free, whereas he costs as much as the other artisans in Europe?

    9/ Native trade – decently improved too, I use most of my early cash to buy food from the Indians and make colonists – much better than the prices in Europe, and it doesn’t seem to raise over time. The price of a colonist ranges between 900 and 1000 on epic all along. And after that, I get my money back by selling horses and guns – to my native friends of course…

    More can be said, but I can’t recall it all now. Big thanks to the mod creators, keep it up with the good work, and I will return to comment again!
     
  13. Willi_Tell

    Willi_Tell praefectus praetorio

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    Indeed a good review, Khan_Asparuh :goodjob:

    Do you actually play the newest release of RaR (1.2) or an older one?
    I'm just asking because some of the things you mentionned (like native raids) have already been re-balanced in the latest release, as far as I know.

    by the way: Shouldn't this thread perhaps better be moved into the RaR-Subforum? :)
    Maybe here or here...?
     
  14. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    @ Pallando, Sorry I missed your post. I did not see it until Khan_Asparuh made his recent review.
    @ Khan_Asparuh, Good review! I have forgotten automation.
     
  15. Khan_Asparuh

    Khan_Asparuh Just a Bulgarian Eddie

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    I have just noticed that 1.2 is out. Downloading...


    All my remarks so far concern 1.1.
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    @Khan Asparuh:

    If you would really like the team to comment your remarks, I would suggest to post in our forum. :thumbsup:
    (Please use this thread for feedback and remarks.)

    I don't like to have detailled discussions about our mod anywhere else.
    (Also this thread was about Release 1.0, which is outdated by 2 releases ...)
     
  17. Sanotra

    Sanotra Wannabe Modder

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    Release 1.0 had a host of other problems that have thankfully been solved. Good job Ray and team.
     

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