Saturn Embassy & Intelligence

[donsig]

Note sent to Saturn.

Spoiler :

Greetings Lord Parkin of Saturn,

We apologize for our delay in responding to your latest message but the war has taken much of our time. We understand your desire to remain at peace with the world. We have the same desire but this i not possible for us right now. SANCTA began the war and are doing their best to bully the great nation of Kazakhstan. We know that the best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him and that is what we intend to do.

We noticed you recently conducted a few trades with SANCTA. While we do not like to see our enemy benefiting from these trades we consider you to be our friend and we are happy that you have gained. We do ask that in the future you consider trading with us before SANCTA. We would certainly make any such trades worth your while. We hope our past deals with you have shown our trustworthiness. We have placed our trust in you though you should know that SANCTA has tried to undermine this trust. We are including a copy of their declaration of war which also states that your team will not be trading feudalism to us. We do not believe their lies but thought it best to have them in the open. Your note indicated you would have feudalism around turn 102. Is this still an accurate estimate?

SANCTA's last message to us is included in the spoiler.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Spoiler :

Namaste Kaz,

At This Point you are hearing from the Shogun, Memphus as our nations have entered into a state of war and our diplomatic offices have been overridden.
So let me explain a little more clearly our thoughts on your past message:

This area has been within the Kazakh sphere of influence since the early part of the game and we consider it our territory. We understand that this revelation is disappointing news to your nation, but it is what is it. This city is strategically important to us as well and our claim predates yours.

No The Oracle Directed our first scout here, as such the territory is ours.

We have stayed in the shadow as events have unfolded. When we revealed ourselves to you we did so deliberately and for a very specific reason. We recognized, just as you wisely have, that there is the potential for a conflict between our two peoples. But this conflict can be avoided.

You were in the shadows because it wasn't your territory, hence why as you approached it from the second time (our third time) we had units there, and many more on the way.

It is flatly unacceptable to our nation that this city ever becomes part of the SANCTA empire. If this were to occur we would consider it an aggressive attack against our nation and would act accordingly. But we also realize that you have invested time and resources and it has to be disappointing that you must now give up your plans for this city.

While you are the technology leader, our MFG is 2 times yours. Our Forges are set up. Our Power is through the roof. We will not give up our plans for the city. But are you willing to give up your chance at winning the game for it?
You see that we are at war, and that you have one less chariot.
What you will not see is that we know you expect to be receiving Feudalism from Saturn. But you won't: Saturn will not be trading Feudalism to you, while we are at war and until you have accepted in writing that Angle and all land north is ours. They will be trading it to us instead.

So in order to prevent conflict we think the only possible solution is to raze the city. We understand that this is a bitter solution, but we hope you are prepared to wipe out this city in order to ensure peace.

No, razing the city will cause conflict. As you can see talking about it already has. So we say again will you withdraw? Or are you prepared for further loses?


Memphus, Shogun, SANCTA
Broken wheels and blood
Foreign territory seen
Avalanche begins

 

[Kaleb]

Saturn have teched Feudalism and giving it to SAN.

Are people ok for me to offer Feud for Maths to Satrun along with the note "as agreed"

 

[Indiansmoke]

Saturn have teched Feudalism and giving it to SAN.

Are people ok for me to offer Feud for Maths to Satrun along with the note "as agreed"

feudalism for math?

Will sancta accept this?

Have they replied to our note?

Also lets think about this, math puts Sancta closer to elephants..we don't want that..this is tricky

 

[Kaleb]

That was the deal... no coincidence SANCTA are demanding Maths from us for the peace treaty. I'm not 100% sure Saturn are signed up to SANCTA's plan. Maths is a lot cheaper than Feudalism after all...

 

[Sommerswerd]

Please send the note ASAP so we know where we stand with Saturn. We already agreed to this trade, and Saturn will probably send Math to SANCTA anyway, but oh well, our agreement did not include any agreements about not trading to SANCTA. Maybe we can put an anti-SANCTA provision in our next tech trade with Saturn.

 

[donsig]

What did Saturn get from SANCTA? We could propose an additional deal with Saturn. One that offers another tech trade that includes them not trading math to SANCTA. Here's a proposed note:

Greetings Lord Parkin and Team Saturn,

We see that you now have feudalism as does SANCTA. Our agreement is to trade feudalism for math but we have no desire to see math passed on to SANCTA. Are you interested in a further tech deal that would include your agreement not to trade math to anyone?

donsig of kazakhstan

Not sure what we could offer them. This is tricky. If the war continues we want feudalism. (It gives longbows, doesn't it?) Of course we can always opt out of the math for feudalism trade. They can't complain since we gave iron working already as a down payment. Another thing is SANCTA may be correct and Saturn won't make the trade anyway. We won't know unless we offer the deal up (or they make the offer). I have to work soon so I won't be able to send this for some time. If it is deemed urgent someone should go ahead and sent the note.

 

[Kaleb]

I don't think we should ask for a clause stopping them giving maths to SAN as they may ask for the same restriction on us giving feud to Cav and MS.

We should just proceed with the deal as planned. We should make the offer in-game ASAP as they'll have reject or accpet it.

 

[Kaleb]

I've sent trade proposal in-game to Saturn of Feud for Maths as previously agreed. Feud is worth 3 times the beakers so we may as well.

 

[donsig]

Ok, then we'll scrap the note. But my idea was to offer them another sweet deal in return for not passing math on to SANCTA. We could still do that, but we do have to wait and see if they accept the deal. We need to remember that we already gave up some techs ahead of time as part of this deal. The entire deal was archery and feudalism for iron working, alphabet and math. Slightly in our favor but we gave two techs up front. Oh, and we used their ability to trade feudalism to others as a selling point.

 

[damnrunner]

I think we should request that they do not trade math to Sancta.

The worst they can do is say no. We could also ask thath they do not trade for x number of turns.

As to passing feudalism to MS and Cav. If they ask us not to - I think our allies would agree to it. They are not at war right now and do not have a pressing need for longbows.

If Saturn refuses to do the trade as previously agreed or trades math to sancta despite our request - we s request that MS and Cav cut any open borders or other trades with saturn.

 

[Kaleb]

Well Saturn have ended turn without accepting the deal...

Kind of cowardly to just back out without saying anything!

 

[Indiansmoke]

I think it is crucial at this point to work together with Cav and MS to isolate Saturn and Sancta.

The 3vs2 is forming faster than I thought, and we must do it now, no point delaying it...trade embarco against both of them.

 

[Kaleb]

Yes, 3v2 seems to be shaping up pretty solidly now. The die is cast... now we just need to make sure our allies stick to the plan and don't get swayed by SANCTA's seductive words...

 

[cav scout]

I think we should give Saturn one last chance to honor the deal that we made in good faith with them. We could say that the game is still young and ask them if they really want to hitch their wagon to SANCTA, making eternal enemies with us in the process. Perhaps we could ask who their active players are so we will know exactly who made the decision to go back on the deal for future games and forum dealings.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I don't think we should tell Saturn anything, just start building up the idea with our allies. The tripple alliance was made for this reason to isolate the other 2, I am just saying to remind that to MS and Cav so we don't get any surprises where MS or Cav or both desert us.

It is obvious now that we will not ally with Sancta and fairly obvious that Sancta has very close ties with Saturn...so a nobrainer what we should do IMO.

 

[donsig]

I think we should send a note simply asking why they aren't honoring the deal they made.

 

[damnrunner]

I think we try to break saturn from Sancta - but realize it is a very low chance of happening. We may want to note that us and Sancta are currently at a stalemate. However once sancta gets construction we will be hard pressed to stay alive. If this happens - they will likely be sancta's next target. They may share this with Sancta - but I do not think it will hurt us to share this info.


We also need to talk to our allies so that they can also start putting pressure on Saturn. Both MS and Cav will have an interest in being aggressive here. Cav especially as they will want to put their imperialist trait to use.

 

[Sommerswerd]

@ Donsig, I am curious about what info you think we might gain by asking saturn why they broke the deal. It seems to me that their response will either be 1, Silence or 2. Lies. Neither of these would be helpful to us. Is there something else you are thinking of that I am overlooking?

It seems obvious to me why they did not deliver Feudalism. They promised SANCTA that they wouldn't. They did so because SANCTA made it a condition of the Metal Casting trade. To convince Saturn to ally with them, SANCT probably just told Saturn the truth... That Kaz allied with Cavalieros and MS and was leaving them (Saturn) out of the loop. The only way we could hope to get Saturn away from SANCTA, is to do what we should have done in the first place... Invite Saturn into a 4-way alliance against SANCTA.

If we don't want to make Saturn a 4-way partner, then I would go with and Smoke's position. Assume that Saturn is allied with SANCTA and just treat them as one enemy entity. If this is the case, we can forget about receiving Feudalism.

 

[Kaleb]

also interested to see what Sulla said in the turn discussion thread:

Alright, it's obvious that the posters in this thread are simply taking sides based on the in-game alliances. That takes us precisely nowhere, as individual perspectives are hopelessly colored by your team perspectives.

i.e. SANCTA and Saturn are allied!

 

[Indiansmoke]

also interested to see what Sulla said in the turn discussion thread:



i.e. SANCTA and Saturn are allied!

Like we did not know