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Saturn Embassy & Intelligence

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    This should make it clear that I wanted to establish a 4-way alliance all along... as well as establishing that I suspected a SANCTA string along...
     
  2. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sommers, Kaleb was saying that we were working towards including Saturn in a 4 way alliance. We gave them a couple techs up front towards feudalism with the hope of bringing them closer to us. Instead they ran to SANCTA. He wasn't suggesting that you didn't support allying with Saturn. You've been going off the wall lately.

    Well, back to the idea of what (if anything) to say to Saturn. Anyone else care to draft a proposal since the two on the table do not seem to have support?
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Hmmm, I disagree Don, and I think maybe we should let :king: respond as to what he meant by the statement (if he cares to, which he may not TBH). After all, we did not engage in any "first step" tech trades with Cavalieros or MS, did we? IMO (and as indicated by my last post) :king: never supported the idea of a 4 way alliance.

    Hmm, I don't think so. Yes my last post was a ver thourough history, but I wanted to fully address what I felt was a subtle attack on my credibility... a suggestion that I was engaged in revisionist history. I think maybe you feel this way (that I am "going off the wall") because...
    1. I am making long posts. However, as you know, I always make long posts.
    2. I have been arguing with you lately, which makes you acutely aware of (and sensitive about) how much I post, how long each post is, and what I say in each post. I might have accused you of "going off the wall" because you have been responding to/criticizing every post I make lately... even posts like the last one, where I wasn't even addressing you. I'm not offended, just pointing out the facts.:)
    3. I did not post much for a couple of months (because I was taking exams, and because of Smoke's suggestion to listen to more experienced members). So now that I am posting regularly, it seems like I am posting alot.

    Well I'll submit my proposal for prompt rejection:

    In response to the critique that I already know will be made (ie "We shouldn't give away that we are allied to Cavalieros and MS), I would repeat that it is silly to keep trying to hide the alliance. Everyone knows, and if they didn't know, Sullla told them (as :king: correctly pointed out).
     
  4. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sommers, the off the wall comment stems from your recent posts that SANCTA, Team Cav and Saturn have all betrayed us and cannot be trusted. All three are acting quite naturally and Saturn is the only one who has gone back on an agreement. And from their note it seems they are not at all happy about the situation. I'm not sure what our chances are of getting Saturn to side with us but I think it's worth a try to woo them even if the attempt ends in futility.

    I like your second paragraph though I think it needs a few changes. I think it can be integrated into my note, perhaps with some of the verbage from the other proposal as well. I think we want to send a positive upbeat note to Saturn. Sommers, would you care to try to weld the three proposed notes into one?

    I really like your idea about asking Saturn if they want to join a four team alliance. Can we somehow play that up without really out and out saying we already have a solid three way alliance? Rather than suggesting to Saturn that we let them join our club can't we just present the four way alliance as a new idea? We could even give Saturn credit for the idea since they talked of the unbalanced game.

    The big question though is, how do we trust Saturn not to trade away anything we give them to SANCTA? I'm not so sure we need this in the note now but we really have to decide this amongst ourselves.
     
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I did not mean that "Team Cav and Saturn cannot be trusted." I said that they suckered us. They might be trusted going forward, but they got the best of us this time.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by "three notes." If you post all three of them in one post, I will be happy to try to meld them together... As Damnrunner has already pointed out. Speed is a key here.
     
  6. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    That's a long post and it was a bit of waste of time tbh. I wasn't suggesting that you hadn't been arguing for a 4-way alliance. My point was (which donsig has understood) that we were taking steps to open a friendly relationship with Saturn. We took a risk in trusting them with an up-front exchange to show our eagerness to partner with them.

    I was against a 4-way alliance but was in favour of replacing MS with Saturn as the 3rd party of our alliance. So we were both keen on allying with them.

    I'll try and have a stab at what we could say to Saturn - I think we should say something.

    btw: Saturn now have Maths and seem to have teched it themselves rather quickly...
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Well it is my time to waste after-all isn't it?;) I mean since this whole exercise is just a game, every single second spent on Civilization 4 is a waste of time right?:) Anyway, what about combining notes as Donsig suggested?
     
  8. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Hmmmm....what if MS or CAV has secretly traded Math to Saturn? Not trying to be alarmist or anything, just making sure we stay open and vigilant to any possibilities- even worst case ones.
     
  9. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Did MS or Team Cav get feudalism? Is it possible Saturn actually teched math?

    Sommers, here are the three proposed noted though with Saturn having math some are now outdated:
     
  10. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    We should be able to check the diplo relations to see if anyone is getting improved relations from a tech gift or a tech trade.

    I doubt that Saturn got math from one of our allies though. I imagine Sancta is giving them gold so they can run 100% research.
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Any thoughts on what the fastest Saturn can tech Construction?

    Lets assume they have all the gold they need from Sancta and can run 100% research. Also they would get a multiplier as 3 teams already have construction which should help them out a good deal.

    Knowing this info will give us the best knowledge of how we should prepare for when Sancta will get catapults and elephants - at which point we are going to be in some trouble. With their high MFG they will be able to put out huge numbers of catapults which will not be a pretty sight.
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I tried to merge some of the language from the three notes... I am not too keen on trying to guilt-trip Saturn so I left that out. I think that makes us sound whiny, and I doubt it will have much effect. I also did not try to hide the fact that we have a relationship with Cavalieros and MS, as I think Saturn may find it insulting.
     
  13. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    What's the "scientist" part about? Remember this is Saturn, not MS ;)
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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  15. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Yeah, that's a good point. They may well have gone for Currency for precisely this reason.

    This also means us being able to see SANCTA's tech plans are pointless.

    If this is true it's very significant as it means they are really cooperating 100% as they know they are playing catch up.

    SANCTA is also going to make a concerted effort to take us down militarily. The earlier they do this the easier for them as well.
     
  16. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Any objections to sending the latest proposed note by Sommers?
     
  17. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    Something says to me that it is too long and complicated. See my post in the SANCTA thread. Something shorter and sweeter asking for Feudalism. It goes without saying that if they are not prepared to do that everything else is irrelevant. We will know if Saturn and SANCTA really want to stop this war. It may well be a lost cause.
     
  18. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    I don't think we should send this without consent from Cavaleiros and MS, as we are talking on theri behalf as well?
     
  19. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    The note is much longer than my original proposal precisely because Donsig asked me to merge the sentiments in three different notes. See my original note? Is that more along the lines of what you want Bolko?

    I think we should go ahead and get a response from Saturn about whether they are interested in leaving SANCTA before we ask the other allies if they will accept them. I would rather go to the allies and say:

    "Saturn wishes to dump SANCTA, join the alliance, and share Feudalism with all of us. Is everyone OK with that?"

    as opposed to saying:

    "We are thinking of offering Saturn a chance to join the alliance in exchange for Feudalism... What do you guys think?"

    One approach seems to take a stronger, agenda setting stance. I am concerned that the second approach sets up a precedent that Cavalieros and MS should expect to have veto power over all our actions going forward. Neither of them have said anything about sending any units to help in our SANCTA war have they? Why ask them for permission?
     
  20. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    My gut feeling reading through this is that unless Saturn share Feudalism with us, as they said they would, we can reasonably assume that they are pretty much allied to SANCTA.

    I would be inclined to make a simple offer along the lines of keeping to our bargain and we'll talk with Cav and MS about their joining us. Realistically if they are not prepared to do that there is not much we can do.
     

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