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Saturn Embassy & Intelligence

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I am with sommers here - we can make an offer and if we later have to toss it that is ok. Saturn already did that to us didn't they.

    I would however send a note to our allies to let them know about it. Include that this is just a negotiating stance and that we will want their input.
     
  2. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    You know I think with Saturn's last message it was a bit of a 'crossing the rubicon' moment. It's probably 3v2 from now on in, but we can still sow seeds of doubt.

    My main concern is that we now really need to be on good terms with MS just in case our pact with Cav goes pear-shaped after SANCTA go down, and we don't want our overtures to Saturn to risk our relationship with MS.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I don't think any threshold was crossed by Saturn's statement. I think that we (as a team majority) decided ahead of time that 3v2 was the only desireable possibility. We never (as a team majority) gave the possibility of 4v1 a chance. Do you disagree :king:?

    This situation gives us a chance to revisit the issue and make a real try (for the first time) to have a true 4v1 alliance.

    Lastly, Saturn is willing to consider our proposed offer (at least the leadership of Saturn is...)
     
  4. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Well Saturn basically is Parkin, DMOC and plako now. We should keep on good terms with them and I'm not against courting them, I'm just saying it's unlikely that current situation will change.

    We hadn't decided as a team what kind of relationship we wanted with Sat but we were all agreed we wanted to try and improve relationships with them.

    I think most of us wanted Sat as an ally too. Either as a 4th member or as a replacement for MS in 3v2.
     
  5. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I was in favor of bringing Saturn closer to us but with them sending feudalism to SANCTA and not us I just don't think we can work out any near term deals with them. Anything we send to Saturn we risk giving to SANCTA as well. We might just as well let things settle into the 3v2. Maybe we should even encourage that since it would bring Team Cav and MS closer to us. I'm not sure how we can be buddy-buddy with Saturn now. We can refrain from being rude, we can talk nice to them but that's about it.
     
  6. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    I agree with Donsig here
     
  7. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    Yes, I think donsig's assessment is accurate.
     
  8. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Donsig is right but we should keep decent ties with Saturn as well. And trying to break them from Sancta has no real downside risk to us. Right now Saturn has tied themselves to Sancta - a team that really offers them almost nothing in return.

    Sancta won't be able to generate much tech and can really just help subsidize Saturn by letting them run 100% tech. This is good for Saturn in the short term - but down the line they will just fall further behind.

    If we win in the Sancta war we will want Saturn as a potential ally going forward.
     
  9. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    I agree with Damnrunner.
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    OK, damnrunner and cav scout - what do you propose we say to Saturn now?
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I did not think we had said anything yet. Have they sent us a response?
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Oh Wow...:eek:

    First off, I agree with Damnrunner and Cavscout...

    Second (and more importantly)

    I meant to post this yesterday (I could have sworn I did)... maybe it didn't go through.

    I spoke to Parkin yesterday on chat and he said that he would discuss them breaking with SANCTA to join us. It should go without saying that our allies (even potential allies) are all hoping to be the ones who end up in the mono-y-mono at the end.

    I bet the only reason he wanted to talk to me is because I ended the turn/posted in the UN... funny.
     
  13. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    The thing is we can't invite Saturn to a 4-way alliance on our own as that means they are allied with MS and Cav as well and we can't make them ally with each other. We can be friends with Saturn but we can't include them in our alliance with out agreement from the other members.

    And we still have the question of what does a 4-way alliance gain us? SANCTA may look menacing now but we can beat them, even with them having help from Saturn. We need to think long-term implications through fully before making promises to other teams.
     
  14. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    It would cut off Sancta's ability to get technology. It would be very favorable - but we should approach as if they are stringing us along.

    I think we can trade and cooperate with Saturn even if our partners are not trading with them. For starters we should ask that they honor the feudalism trade. We can offer ??? (any tech should be worth less than math) in exchange? And agree that neither side will share the tech for the time being.

    We can then negotiate with MS and Cav on bringing them into the alliance. If it fails - we still benefit a great deal by getting LB sooner.
     
  15. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Can we have the chat log please Sommers? We had our diplomacy under control after our initial troubles and now you are stirring things up again. Aren't there some polls you can run or something?
     
  16. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Note from Saturn:
    Here is my proposed reply:

    Hello Lord Parkin,

    We are unable to have a detailed discussion about Sommerswerd's proposal to you since we do not know what he told you. If you could supply us with a chat log of your conversation with him we would greatly appreciate it.

    You are correct in thinking there are trust issues between us, the greatest being that your team proved untrustworthy regarding a tech trade that we partially paid for up front. It did not help to foster good relations between us when you traded feudalism to SANCTA. Surely your team realizes they have attacked us. Frankly, the biggest obstacle to friendship between Kazakhstan and Saturn is our fear that any techs we trade to you will be forwarded to the ninjas at SANCTA. We see no way of guaranteeing you will not pass on our secrets to our enemy, other than the word of your team and I'm sure you can understand we have little faith in that right now.

    If you truly desire to begin rebuilding trust between our teams then the first step is to send us feudalism.

    donsig of Kazakhstan

    Thoughts on this approach?
     
  17. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    Well, I think the optics might be better if we actually got the chat log from our own compatriot rather than have to ask for it from one of the allies of our enemy! Sommers, please post this and please repost the other chat log with Memphus.
     
  18. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    First off, I thought that you stepped down as Foreign Minister Donsig :confused: Or was that just a bluff?:lol:

    Secondly, I like the note and would send with these changes.;):

    Third, the only reason we have re-opened the diplomatic channel with Saturn is because of MSN chat... This should be obvious to everyone. We have another chance to isolate SANCTA. We should not waste it.

    Fourth, I tried to be diplomatic and discrete with you about the chatlog thing Donsig, but since you continue trying to coerce me, I will state very plainly that my chatlogs and PMs are my business, to be shared if I choose and when I choose. You can post/scold me 1000 times... this will make no difference. I have said my piece and counted to 3.

    Fifth, I'm not even sure what the first paragraph of your proposed note was designed to accomplish other than to intimidate me... :confused: Why do you need the details of what Sommers proposed? :confused: You already have Saturn's proposal right there in front of you. All we need to do is respond to what Saturn proposed...right? At any rate, what I proposed to Saturn was a similar arrangement to the one we (arguably) have with Cavalieros and MS.

    The post of the chatlog was an accident, as for the rest, you know my position...
     
  19. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Well I don't see how we can ally with Saturn along these lines without:

    a) getting MS and Cav to agree not to attack Saturn
    or b) leaving our alliance with MS or Cav or both

    What is feasible for us is to come to an agreement with Saturn whereby we can trade with each other but we can agree not to share techs we have received with other civs. So they give us Feudalism and we give them something else cheaper (similar value to maths) and we agree not to trade those techs with anyone else.

    We can also say something to Saturn along the lines of:

    We can agree to an NAP - but are we going to tell them everything about Cav and MS's plans?? If SANCTA weren't using an exploit we would know what they are researching anyway.

    Other than getting some tech of Saturn I don't really see what more help they can offer us at this moment.
     
  20. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    C'mon are you seriously asking why we would like to know what people on our own team are proposing to other teams on behalf of our team?

    Do Saturn know you are just speaking to them representing yourself?
     

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