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Scandinavians/Norsemen/Vikings/Danes... Time to clear this up once and for all.

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by RobinHat, Sep 15, 2009.

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  1. RobinHat

    RobinHat Warlord

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    They didn't exactly colonise Russia, but rather created immense trade routes and founded many towns and cities along the rivers. No 'colonisation' took place as such. ;)
     
  2. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    We must make a distinction between what we should like to see and what is likely to happen. Margaret of Denmark ruled all of Scandinavia (or the Nordic countries) from Iceland over the Faroes to Norway and Denmark to Sweden-Finland (which were one country then, had been for centuries and would remain one country until 1809. Something like Scotland and Wales) and would hence be a good choice as ruler of a Scandinavian civ. She was a good ruler, too. If one moves away from the Viking Age (for which Canute is the obvious choice), Margaret is the only possible ruler of "Scandinavia". That entity was never known as "Denmark", as you know; for reasons I think are too convoluted to outline in this discussion, she was queen of Denmark, of Norway and of Sweden (with Finland) *separately*, and was acknowledgd as such in three different years by the parliaments of the respective polities. A British parallel is William III being king of England and Scotland separately; there was no United Kingdom when he ascended the throne.

    As for two possible separate civs (Denmark and Sweden), Denmark could have Margaret and Canute and Sweden could have Gustavus Adolphus. If Norway was in the running (which it wouldn't be even on this level of wishful thinking, I'm afraid) it would be Olav Tryggvason. (Förlåt mig, Norge.)

    The Danes were indeed the mightiest of the three Scandinavian countries during the Viking Age; but they were not so almighty that they merit being the "Viking Civilization" under the name of "Danes". Both the Norwegians (who conquered considerable parts of Ireland and Scotland, settled the Faroes, Orkney and Shetland, founded Iceland and travelled to America) and the Swedes (who plundered all over the Baltic Sea, founded Russia, made up the major part of the elite Varangian Guard in Constantinople and traded with the Caliphs of Baghdad) made a certain impression on their contemporaries. (The word "Varangian", incidentally, comes from the Old Norse "væring", which meant "defender".)

    Incidentally, I think many non-Scands are misled by the English word "Norsemen". It does not mean "Norwegians"; it means "men from the North". The whole kit and caboodle. Also, the name Russia is derived from Rus, the name of the Swedish tribe inhabiting the archipelaho of Roslagen east of Stockholm. It is easy to find information about this.

    Anyway, I'd like to see a Danish civ with Canute and Margaret as the rulers to choose between and a Swedish one with Gustavus Adolphus; since I don't think that is going to happen, I'd vote for a Scandinavian civ under Canute. Not under the semi-mythical Ragnar.
     
  3. RobinHat

    RobinHat Warlord

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    Öjevind, you make some very good points.

    I am glad that this is a discussion that people join in and take seriously. I must say that it is indeed very unlikely that we will see 'Danish' and 'Swedish' civs in the game, which is a shame, but making this thread I also just wanted to bring some things to light that many people simply don't know.

    I hope that the very least we can get rid of Ragnar and replace him with Canute (perhaps with Margrethe as a second leader)... and for the love of god, let's get rid of those horns!
     
  4. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Amen brother, I'm completely with you on those points. Most especially about the h*rns. :)
     
  5. DJ Bonebraker

    DJ Bonebraker a.k.a Laura

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    Yeah, IIRC, only certain high priests of Odin wore the horns....

    ....Well, that and some of the GERMANIC invaders of Rome tended to wear Auroch horns on their helmets, but that's an entirely different geographical area and historical period altogether. (My family was part of that particular shindig ;) )
     
  6. RobinHat

    RobinHat Warlord

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    Actually, no one EVER wore horns in Scandinavia, not even priests. No horned helmet has EVER been found.

    Horned helmets have been found in other regions, but never in Scandinavia. Not one!
     
  7. DJ Bonebraker

    DJ Bonebraker a.k.a Laura

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    Well, there are a few depictions of horned helms on Danish and Swedish seals and coats of arms, but all those date to the 14th and 15th centuries, i.e. WAY after the Viking Age.....

    More info here., but still, wether or not horned (or antlered) helms (or caps) were or were not used for religious purposes, I think we can agree that they were DEFINITELY NOT used for MILITARY purposes!

    Also, @Öjevind Lång: I wonder if Olav Tryggvason is any relation to Othar Tryggvassen (Gentleman Adventurer) ;) :joke:
     
  8. Whaleyland

    Whaleyland Chieftain

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    I vote for Knut as the ruler of Scandinavia or a separation between the two states. Indeed, I think that Poland(-Lithuania) need to be created as a separate state as well, since they were quite powerful for a long while in Eastern Europe.

    On a similar note on Civilization's frequent lack of historical depth (or intentional avoidance of it), Civilization Colonization calls the ruler of the Netherlands "King". It doesn't take an academic to realize that Netherlands didn't have a king until after the Napoleonic Wars. Calling the ruler "Stadholder", I guess, just doesn't sound as fun. Calling the ruler the "States General" seems out of the question. Civilization is a great game, but it's developers could definitely spend a few more hours in the textbooks before publishing their games. I doubt it would even take much more time to correct some of their blatant historical inaccuracies. Renaming the Viking civ as Danes and adding a Sweden civ probably would be an easy fix.
     
  9. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Othar seems to have had more fun. :lol:
     
  10. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    I am a modder. And this sounds like a job for a modder if I've ever heard one.

    I did make a mod when we were in version 3.17 of CivIV called Diplomacy. In this mod I split the Native American civilization into two civs from previous games (the Sioux from Civ2 and the Iroquois from Civ3). I did not change the Vikings to anything, but I did make modular civs you could add yourself. These civs included Denmark, Sweden and Finland (I do realize Finland is not a Scandinavian country, I am just pointing out that it was there). I had Christian IV and Margrete as the leaders of Denmark, Gustavus Adolphus (the next version will also have Gustav Vasa) as the leader of Sweden, and Urho Kekkonen as the leader of Finland.

    I made the mod so that you could plug in any modular civ you wanted or remove it whenever you felt it necessary (this was to save load times and to prevent civs like Cuba popping up if the player didn't want it to). I think a mod set up like this would be of interest to you guys. I kept the Viking Civilziation in because, frankly, it has been in three versions of the game and I honestly think some people like having it there, whether historically accurate or not. And as many people have said there are plenty of civs that aren't really historically accurate. Sorry to go off on a rant here, but I guess the point of this post is this...

    This can be modded easily, and I am making a new version for 3.19. If you go to the Creation and Customization forum, then the Modpacks forum, and then its in the thread DIPLOMACY: a mod for Diplogames. If you want to check it out and follow the progress that would be great, and if you have any insight as to what I should do about the Nordic countries that would be greatly appreciated. If you are interested the leaders I have for the Vikings are Ragnar (obviously), Harald Hardrada, and Canute the Great.
     
  11. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    when saying that Norwegian is a Westen Nordic Langaug,e i think that while initially right, its at best a truth with modifications ... you have to remember that there is two different, acknowlegded 'Norwegians' ... Bokmål ('book langauge'), which by far is the biggest, which basicly is Danish with norwegian accent (or at least was till 18xx) and Nynorsk ('new norwegian') which was a promotion of the more heavily accented langauge in the more rural areas, which also still had a fair share of Old Norse in it ...

    Going off a far tangent i know
     
  12. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    That sounds very interesting indeed! But I still think the "Viking Civilization" should be renamed the Scandinavian Civilization, as it was in Civ III, if I recall correctly.
     
  13. DJ Bonebraker

    DJ Bonebraker a.k.a Laura

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    Yes, the faction was called "Scandinavia" in Civ III.
     
  14. Vernon

    Vernon Chieftain

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    I think you should delete the Scandinavian Civilization, and replace it with Sweden and Denmark, because both countries where great powers around 1700-1800. But Norway was not independent until 1909.

    Btw, Sweden is playing a very important game against Denmark in the qualifiers for the world cup in football 2010. I think Sweden will win win 2-1, you all know what happened las year? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbSU4ubVJ_8
     
  15. RobinHat

    RobinHat Warlord

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    That was such a discrace. That idiot became the single object of anger for all of Denmark after that.
    It was so incredibly stupid for so many reasons. It had also been such a good game! 3-3 in overtime!
    Also, Denmark was up until that moment the country in the world whose supporters had won most fair-play awards for being least trouble. They always had a reputation for non-violence... That fool ruined everything for everyone.

    Let's hope the upcoming game will be without such idiocy - from either side.

    Oh, and Denmark is going to win... ;)
     
  16. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

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    Great article (the OP) I am 100% pro renaming Vikings to Danes now. In fact I'm so pro I've been evangelizing the change on the Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations subforum
     
  17. RobinHat

    RobinHat Warlord

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    Glad you liked it. :) Thank you for your kind words! Now let's get the word out to the higher powers of Civ.
     
  18. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

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    [deleted something posted something in wrong thread]

    My pleasure. Alas I think the higher powers of Civ are deaf to such cries. Anyway I always play with modded versions so I don't much care. Rhye is a higher power to me :)
     
  19. Cethegus

    Cethegus King

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    Good god how much text. I'm tagging it for now and will read it later.
     
  20. DJ Bonebraker

    DJ Bonebraker a.k.a Laura

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    Oh, I'm planning on doing something like that....

    I'm also thinking about getting rid of the following redundant civs and merging their city/leader lists with the other faction they should join with: Babylon (already have Sumeria), Byzantines (already have Rome), and possibly America (already have England)....

    This will allow me to add: Sweden (split from Scandinavia, which will be re-named Denmark) and Israel or Poland....

    I'll have to make lists and such, but I don't have any time to mod right now....
     
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