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Scenario Design and Redesign

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario League' started by Konig15, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    OK.....after LONG stint of not being happy with Paradox games, I want to at least take a crack at making things that DO make me happy. And....well I haven't really played a Civ game other than 2, and it' exclusively because of the awesome scenarios, I should cut my teeth on very simple game I know very well.

    As to what to make...there' a couple of things, depending on demand and possible feedback.
    A couple of the old scenarios I could try to remake because I think they are flawed in important ways or could be improved.
    I could try and create my own, which has a huge problem in that I can't create maps and don't know if other will AND placing cities is a NIGHTMARE for me. Not impossible but.....difficult.
    I'm also dealing with the imitations of unit types and terrains. For historical civs, that's probably not a huge issue, but if I COULD, I'd remake the Mars Scenario AND a Fallout scenario, both of which I don't have enough terrain types for the same map.

    Something I LOVED about certain scenarios was infrastructure building, creating TALL empires instead of side empires......normally in preparation of making it wide. IIRC ToT is a better system and is more flexible if you have the maps. BUT the airport bug is MORE important for me as a tool in infrastructure building than the flexibility of TOT and the lack of maps.

    Is there a program of some kind where you can change normally editable values? In this case, resetting wonders, including lost ones, setting cities so that they can only be reduced to level 1 but never destroyed? Just getting the city editor to work for TOT multiple map games would be a Godsent.

    And what are some of the mechanics you can build with events? I loved the weapons purchase mechanic from 1948, the village and temple sacking mechanic in Age of Constantine, the whale hunting in one of the Charelmane scenarios, the slavery mechanic in Colonization 4, etc.

    I want to see about building new mechanics.

    Right now, I am thinking of the "easiest" thing to do is to take the old Outremer scenario. It's both too hard AND too easy and there's too many cities in the Holy Land. It's a great long term scenario IF managed right.

    So what am I thinking of? Well, turn on the Cheat mode and use it as part of the house rules MERCS and special units. LIke have the 1948 weapons buying program and you buy units from outside. Rule is you get them for five years BUT if you decide to keep them longer, you need to make a sacrifice: in this case, creating a barbarian estate unit on one of the tiles in your cities and permanently lose production. Something like that where creating a professional force means ultimately creating nobility or making horrific concessions to the merchant republics.

    Thing is, I want to make painting the map HARD and true professional forces possible to build but so costly they usually aren't worth it. This is sorta, but not completely like the Host Mechanic and Navy mechanic of onf of he crusade scenarios, this on starting 1000 AD AND the Magister units of Age of Constantine.

    I was wondering if there way a way to make more lateral play possible via these barbarian units that deny city use of terrain, and if it could be both a good and bad thing... Like....you could allow heretics and outsiders to build enclaves, but you could use I dunno, a special taxman unit to tax it every turn and either get gold or a free merchant unit or a levy unit you can use to speed production in the empire. But this would need to be balanced by some kind of upring mechanic, where the more tolerant you are, and more of these milking units you have the greater a chance of a major, destructive rebellion, either a nuke goes off or it creates the same effect as a goodie hut releasing a bunch of bad news units.

    My goal is to make long term development games, ones where winning is good, but it's just the beginning. You can and SHOULD create a long term golden age. I played Fading Lights which is 200 turns and I conquered the Middle East by turn 60 or so and spent a long and prosperous 150 years of infrastructure building, including creating monasteries on every hill in the empire, building new cities maximizing old ones, all while listening to audiobooks.

    Oh and something occurred to me that maybe occurred long ago. People were talking about building WW2 operational games where gas was a mechanic and the best way in theory as to make the mechanized forces eat food instead of production. but the AI wouldn't use them to attack.

    Well, why not reverse them, and change the terrain variants to make production to work as food and food to work are production? Not for every scenario that's for sure, you might get what you need for tactical and operational scenarios.

    Other things I could work on would be tweaking Red Front, a scenario I could never stomach to play because....I know what the Soviets did to Eastern Europe or taking one of the really great multiplayer gems for WWII or Napoleon and using events to turn them into functional single-player games. Or I could take the Fading Lights map and city placement and possibly make a World War I Middle East Front game?

    What you recommend for a milk run?
     
  2. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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  3. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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  4. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    It's something the CIV2 highs could be informed about and implement. :)
     
  5. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    Well, I'm been trying to look over thoe for a week and I can't make heads or tails of it. Any of it. It's too technical for an introduction.
    I need to know what these would allow me to DO, things others have already gotten their scenarios to do. I mean can you re-implent the airbase bug, can you build more buildings like airbases for flavor, how do new terrains work and can you have more than seven players?

    I mean, I'm looking for something conceptually simple to cut my teeth on.
    Simplest conceptually might be a Worldwar Scenario that I could upgrade and refurbish over time.....Provided I have the reources to draw on.

    How picky are people about protecting their assets? Because I'd be taking a LOT from Europe in Flames and other World War and modern scnearios as I am able. The other issue would be making sure the Lizards are continously aggressive but not enough to overwelm the Big Five. I have no idea how to balance that out. I want the Lizards to be a NIGHTMARE, moreso than the Nazis in Red Front

    Later Objectives would be:
    1. Scpriting events based on conquests
    2. Mutual support optons
    3. Pace of Cairo evacuations
    4. Development of SDIs
    5. Libertation mechanics
    6. Chanigng the text of starship consturction so it's going to Tau Ceti and not Alpha Centuri.

    And thn of course is the notion of whether to make it for Gold or ToT. Is there still a market for Gold games?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  6. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    As I mentioned in the WW2 thread, you need to go try out Napoleon and Over the Reich. There is far too much changed. Basically, you can "do" whatever you need to do (to an extent). Did my private message help you get ToTPP going?

    So long as you properly credit people, most art is fair to use. There was only ever Alex who tried to charge. Do not wipe the author signatures from the units (meaning: edit your units in a paint program, not MGE).

    Many still play the base game but there is very little market for gold scenarios.
     
  7. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    As to ToTPP I'm at work (volunteer position actually) so I haven't tried it. If you check the Civ 2 general section there's a thread by me that probably indicates it won't/ THe basic thing is I don't understand how to make the versions you guys are playing with work. I found a romed version of Civ2 and Test of TIme, that require no Dos boxing, they just play. The TOT isn't working past starting a new game and the TOTPP pachter seems to be incompatbile with tthat version.

    The MGE version works like a charm. No scenarios, no sounds, no vidoes but it seems to play an MGE scenario I put in it. But I'll update when I get home
     
  8. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    The lessons I wrote will only make sense if you actually get TOTPP installed and do the exercises as instructed. It is not reasonable to expect to understand programming without actually typing up instructions and seeing your computer follow them. The advantage of learning programming with TOTPP is that you can very quickly start to do things that you find worthwhile and interesting. All this said, programming Lua events is a skill that will take some time and effort, and especially practice to learn. If you try the lessons and still have questions, then I'll be happy to help.

    You can sort of reimplement the airbase bug with lua, in the sense that you can check each city, see how many worked airbases are in the city radius, and put extra food and shields into the city's boxes. But you could just use an event to change the terrain to something better.

    There are no extra terrain improvements available and 7 civs (plus barbs) is still the maximum. These things would require a re-write of the game to change (which I may try at some point, but would be a substantial and lengthy undertaking in any case).

    The extra terrains are defined in the rules.txt file, and then you just put them in your scenario with cheat mode.
     
  9. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    If someone could hex/add more than 7 civs to CIV2, then I would sing their praises for eternity.
     
  10. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    @Konig15

    From your other thread:

    I would imagine the reason this was done is because they wanted to have similar names for each unit (for example, "Infantry") and with macro.txt-based events, that can present a problem:

    @THEN
    CreateUnit
    owner=Romans
    unit=Infantry
    ...

    The macro.txt can't distinguish (as far as I know, anyway) between an "Infantry" in unit slot 0 (settlers) or an "Infantry" in unit slot 1 (engineers), and I'm pretty sure it just grabs the first one it finds. Hence, you'll find many scenarios with "British Infantry," "German Infantry," "Russian Infantry" rather than simply three "Infantry" values.

    One nifty thing about lua events is that you can refer to different units by their integer rather than name, so you could have a rules.txt file with 127 units all called "Infantry" if you wanted, and you could still have individual events for each:

    Code:
    local unitAliases = {}
    unitAliases.Infantry1           = civ.getUnitType(28)
    unitAliases.Infantry2           = civ.getUnitType(30)
    unitAliases.Infantry3          = civ.getUnitType(32)
    unitAliases.Infantry4           = civ.getUnitType(34)
    
    The "1-4" at the end just gives each Aliases a different name for the events but it won't show up in the actual scenario -- you'll just see "Infantry" assuming that is what all four are named in the rules.txt.

    The number at the end is the unit.id. I have no idea what any of these are in the base game off the top of my head, but if you wanted the unit in engineers, you'd have an entry in this table that says:

    Code:
    local unitAliases = {}
    unitAliases.doesNotNeedToBeWhatTheUnitIsCalledInRulesFile         = civ.getUnitType(1)
    
    Anyway, that's a behind the scenes explanation for why there are so many ROK and US/UN designators.
     
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