Scenario Idea

[MattE]

The Instigation of World War II: Stalin's Secret Plan to Conquer Europe.

In the book Red Storm Rising, Tom Clancy depicts a massive, surprise, well thought out Soviet invasion into Germany, with the intension of taking over Europe. In 1941 this situation came close to reality, although the context was different.

Stalin helped to make Hitler dictator of Germany because he was using Hitler to provoke the second World War. Stalin wanted Hitler to wage war over Europe so that it would be weakened by hatred and destruction. Then he would invade as a “liberator from the Nazis” and take control of all of it, including Germany, France, Italy, and Spain.

Stalin’s plot was a masterpiece; even today most people still aren’t aware about it. However, he failed in his secret attempt because Hitler found out about his plans and launched a last-resort preventive strike at the USSR in 1941. He destroyed most of the Soviet Union’s offensive capacity, removing the immediate threat to Europe. Had this action not been taken, the Soviet flag would have flown in London by the end of 1941.

Recently I came across a document which was released by a (GRU) officer, working for four years in Geneva under diplomatic cover. He defected in 1978. The document was titled

“Historian Details Stalin’s Two-Year ‘Mobilization’ Plan for European Conquest.”

This document goes into a lot detail about the planned invasion, including: Troop movements, numbers, locations, production, intelligence activities, top secret projects and experimental weapons (Flying Tanks!) and much more. So far I've only read 12 out of 49 pages and already I'm fascinated and shocked at what I've been reading.

I thought it would be great to see a scenario created from this document. However, I've never created a scenario before and wouldn't know where to start, not to mention I have no skill at all.

So if anyone is interested I would be glad to help in anyway I can.

And while I'm here, what the hell does PBEM mean?

Cheers

 

[Souron]

So thats why Germany attacked the USSR.

PMBM = Play by Email

(defined right in the board discription)

 

[Cecasander]

Sure, and pigs can fly. Hitler attacked Russia becourse of it's recources. I mean, did you really though the Nazi's would honor the Molotov-Ribbentrop-Pact?

 

[MattE]

I know that not everyboby is going to believe me, in fact I didn't really expect anyone too. I'm sure Hitler invaded for all sorts of reasons; resources, territory, industry, he hated communism etc. And I'm sure that no matter what eventually he would've attack the USSR. But what I'm saying is that he attacked earlier than had planned because he got wind of Stalin's plans for Europe. And Hitler wasn't honoring the pact he was prolonging it to prepare his forces. Now don't get me wrong I hate Hitler and his Nazi thugs, but maybe Hitler attacked to defend himself against the red invasion and to have Europe fo himself? And I can proove it.

- “We are doing something which, if it succeeds, will overturn the whole world and liberate the entire working class.” – Stalin
- Viktor Suvorov (the man who released the documents) was trained as a Soviet army officer in Kalinin and Kiev. Later, after staff level service and completing studies at the Diplomatic Military Academy in 1974, he served as a Soviet military intelligence (GRU) officer, working for four years in Geneva under diplomatic cover. He defected in 1978.
- Starting in 1939, the largest mobilization of troops in history began in the Soviet Union, bringing two strategic echelons with 26 massive armies to the western frontier. (German boarder)

Sorry for all the reading ahead but to prove my point I need to explain a lot so I'll post new things in each reply.

Cheers

 

[MattE]

- The Soviet army consisted of 5 million men. 6 more million would be drafted in the summer of 1941. Between July 1939 and June 1941, Stalin increased the number of Soviet tank divisions from 0 to 61, with dozens more in preparation. By June 1941, the “neutral” Soviet Union had assembled more tank divisions than all the other countries of the world put together.

- In June 1941 Hitler threw 10 mechanized corps into battle, of which each, on average, had more than 340 light and medium tanks. By contrast, Stalin had 29 mechanized corps, each with 1,031 light, medium, and heavy tanks.

- In mid-1941, the Red Army was the only military force in the world with amphibious tanks. Stalin had 4,000 of these weapons of offensive war; Germany had none.

- By June 1941, the Soviets had increased the number of their paratroop corps from 0 to 5, and the number of their field artillery regiments from 144 to 341, in each case more than all the other armies of the world put together.

- By June 1941, the Soviet navy had more than 218 submarines in service, with another 91 under construction.

- Stalin ordered construction of more than 100,000 Su-2 [bomber aircrafts], as well as the training of 150,000 pilots.

- Germany did not begin in earnest to put its economy on war footing until early 1942, two years after the Soviet Union. But whereas Soviet military and arms production reached a crescendo in the summer of 1941, Germany’s did not peak until 1944 – three years too late. In 1939, the percent of the Germany economy focused on war was 9%. In the Soviet Union it was 25%. By 1941, Germany’s percent rose to 19, while it was 43% in the USSR.

- In addition to Red Army and NKVD troops, the Soviet Union also employed hundreds of thousands of prisoners from its concentration camps in the east and north.

 

[MattE]

- In 1933, the German colonel (later general) Heinz Guderian visited a Soviet locomotive engineering works at Kharkov. Guderian saw that, in addition to locomotives, the yard was producing tanks as a side product. The tanks were being produced at the rate of 22 a day. When assessing the output of side products at one Soviet plant in peacetime, it must be remembered that in 1933 Germany was producing no tanks at all.

- In 1939, Hitler came into the Second World War with 3,195 tanks, that is, less than the Kharkov locomotive engineering works, working on a peacetime footing, produced in six months. Even after the war began, the United States only had 400 tanks, 19 days worth at the Kharkov yard.

- Armies were formed in the western regions at the time when the Soviet Union was invading Poland, Finland, Bessarabia , and the Baltic States . After the acquisitions however, these armies, extremely expensive to maintain, were not disbanded.

- Until this point, armies had only been formed during wartime, and only to fight in war. In fact, the quantity and strength of the armies was significantly increased. In June 1940 the 16th and 17th armies were formed. This event was noteworthy because it was the first time in Soviet history that a number higher than 16 was used to designate an army.

- Yet these armies were far superior to any used before in the Soviet Union. In July 1940, the 26th army appeared on the German frontier. This was not a mistake in numbering sequence. In fact, the Soviet Union had SECRETLY created not one more army, but eleven more: the 18th, 19th, 20th, and so forth until 28th. In May 1941 the 23rd and 27th appeared on the border. In June 1941 the rest emerged there as well except for a few which were assigned to the Japanese front.

- In addition, 3 NKVD armies were stationed behind the 2 echelons of the Red Army. Sometimes, these 3 NKVD armies are referred to as the Third Strategic Echelon.

- This whole mobilization plan was decided by Stalin at a Politburo meeting on August 19, 1939, four days before the Nazi-German pact was signed.

 

[MattE]

Would you like me to go on? It gets even more interesting.

By the way sorry to the moderators this subject got a bit off topic.

 

[Arthedain]

Wow, some really interesting facts there.
Any maps of the subject?

 

[MattE]

No maps, but it goes into detail of where the units were located and where and how they were going to strike.

 

[yoshi]

Cool. Since this not really known by most (as it was secret) and as you said, Hitler would have attacked the Soviet Union anyway, including this into a sceanrio would seem to be somewhat superfluous.
Nevertheless, I can see MODers using this information in thier scenarios so you should find a way to make “Historian Details Stalin’s Two-Year ‘Mobilization’ Plan for European Conquest” available here for download (a scan in PDF format perhaps?). I would personally be interested in the information concerning force locations (unit placements) --I, like many, really prefer historically accurate scenarios since it adds the effect of 'being there.'

FYI: I'm presently in the initial stages creating of a WW2:Europe scenario (for MGE since so few people seem to have ToT). I'm really focusing on experimenting with the macro right now --a very difficult job where elaborate AI responses are concerend. Anyway, I'm setting parameters based on German generals' point of view (i.e. better tactics than Allied generals but ol' Hinkle gets in the way). The idea is to keep it as close to the actual historical circumstances (as far as Civ2 will allow) while at the same time giving the player room to manouver and giving the scenario a certain degree of replayability.
What I will eventually want is a general rundown of force locations/amounts during the period of conflict. God knows it's difficult to keep the AI in line where unit positioning is concerned --it's like the worst kind of disobedient little kid who systematically does exactly the opposite of what you want it to (maybe I should use reverse psychology ).

 

[MattE]

I'll try to attach it nut the last time I tried it said invalid format so I'll try something different. The problem is nobody believes me when I tell them about the Soviet invasion even though I can prove it.

I'll try soon

 

[MattE]

Still wont work... Maybe I can start a new thread with all the info in that?

 

[Serutan]

Originally posted by MattE
The Instigation of World War II: Stalin's Secret Plan to Conquer Europe.


Stalin helped to make Hitler dictator of Germany because he was using Hitler to provoke the second World War. Stalin wanted Hitler to wage war over Europe so that it would be weakened by hatred and destruction. Then he would invade as a “liberator from the Nazis” and take control of all of it, including Germany, France, Italy, and Spain.

And Stalin cleverly disguised his plans in the mid 1930s by
liquidating 80% of the senior officers in the Red Army, liquidating all senior Party officials who weren't toadys/ yes men/cronies,
and , in late 1939 launching an attack on Finland that was handled so incompetently that it made Hitler decide that Russia
was ripe for the taking.

Your source (Suvarov) is quite discredited. While there is evidence that Zhokov wanted to launch a pre-emptive attack in 1941, Stalin vetoed it because he knew it would be a miserable failure.

 

[yoshi]

Although the document may over emphasize some things, I would say that the value in it lies primarily in the statistical information and not necessarily in its relevance to the way events actually played out. Very appropriate if your WW2 scenario predates 1941 (which most do).

I find that people tend to underestimate the potential for Soviet expansion during that period. Just because it didn't occur doesn't mean it wouldn't have occured had pre-WW2 events in Germany and Russia played out differently. In fact, I would say that the result on the eastern front seems to keep with the document's claim (based on the information recieved thus far).
Even if Suvarov has exaggerated some of the facts, I wouldn't mind looking over it just out of curiosity.

Still wont work... Maybe I can start a new thread with all the info in that?

Could be (if you do, don't forget to post a link to it in this thread). But take your time. Didn't mean to rush you. Not having posted anything other than a bitmap, I can't really help you out with unsupported formats. Perhaps you should contact CFC for that infromation.

 

[MattE]

Thank you Yoshi!

Finally somebody who is prepared to at least listen to the possibliity of a Soviet invasion of Europe. in the History and off-topic forums I'm getting it from everywhere. Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it never was going too.

I'll think I'll just start a new thread with all the info in it. What do you think?

 

[yoshi]

By all means.
(It's odd that more people aren't interested considering the overwhelming amont of Civ2 WW2 scenarios out there --it's not like most of them reign supreme in the way of historical realism anyway. I don't see what the big problem is with this document. Oh well.)


An example of this reaction is the information surrounding German nuclear development: it is popularly believed that the experimentation with 'heavy water' plants was specifically for ther purpose of building an atomic weapon --hence the Allies' continuous attempts to derail the program. Something that is not considered by most is that nuclear development was primarily for the purpose of energy procution. Remember that the Allies were every effective at destorying German centers of energy production (e.g. Mossies using 'Tall Boys' to destroy hydro dams), so it was imperitive that germany develop alternative energy systems. Also remember that with the disaster on the eastern front, Germany neded to dedicate all its fuel reserves to it mechanized divisions and could not afford to use this precious resource on diesil plants --coal plants being quite inefficient.
How many people think the German nuclear program was for any other purpose than to drop an A-bomb on Washington or London? Very few.

BTW, although I am not into the idea of using 'super weapons' in scenarios, I have read some documentation relating to German development of so-called "wunderwaffe" (super weapons --pardon the bad German). For instance their experimentation with electromagnetic fields --the research of which was continued by the Soviets and the Americans. You've probably heard of the the American accounts with "foo fighters" (Allied nickname for the bright lights that would occasionally appear near bomber formations in the skies over Germany). There are connections that indicate that these 'craft' were the direct result of 'bell' technology (super EM generator). It seems that the main problem was the effects of the fields on test pilots --Russian POWs were used as test subjects and they would develop cellular abnormalities (tumors) and other side effects. (Makes you wonder what's happening to all those teens that walk around with cell phones glued to their heads.) The Soviets gained access to this bits and pieces of this technology following the defeat of Germany --as did the Allies (SS personelle destroyed a lot of it before they evacuated the test sites), so I would logically concur that development of this technology must have seen at least some success in that time. In fact, even industry in Japan has experimented with this technology if you can believe it.

Sorry for going off topic but I thought I might as well add in my two cents.

 

[MattE]

Here's all the info I got...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72413

Note: There is a LOT of stuff in there so happy reading.

And if you do end up making a scen about it let me know please.

 

[yoshi]

Got it. ...reading... This could take a while so thanks for the info.