scholarship

[zoommooz11]

Really started getting into the game (after modding it for my preferred longer game) and I found that the massive research bonus from sages/scholarship promotions seemed a bit OP, as my cities (2) where producing around 10, and my scholars were producing around 90. Is there any way that I could make each rank give 0.25 instead of 1?

 

[Pazyryk]

You could mod the Research action in EaMain/EaActions.lua. Look for:

TestTarget[GameInfoTypes.EA_ACTION_RESEARCH] = function()

and change equation for g_int1.

I've been thinking as a general balance issue that all of the "yield actions" need reduction. Either that or all of the GP mods need reduction. I'll probably do one of these in v8.

 

[zoommooz11]

You could mod the Research action in EaMain/EaActions.lua. Look for:

TestTarget[GameInfoTypes.EA_ACTION_RESEARCH] = function()

and change equation for g_int1.

I've been thinking as a general balance issue that all of the "yield actions" need reduction. Either that or all of the GP mods need reduction. I'll probably do one of these in v8.

So we are talking about these two lines:

1. g_int1 = floor(g_mod * scienceModifier / 200 + 0.5)

2. g_int1 = floor(g_mod / 4) + 1

Sorry, I cannot see the connection between great persons level of scholarship and the beaker they add per turn.

Also, I agree with the 'all gp mods' need reducing (those warrior can add a huge amount of xp per turn when levelled up), but I do need to remember that in my 6000 turn games these 'problems' are much more pronounce then with normal games where man GP are dying in eighty turns, making the above almost irrelevant to them. Perhaps immortal/living need a different mechanics???? Or better yet, a scaled mechanic for all, based on the law of diminishing returns.

That is new, early learning comes in great chunks (think new born baby), while new late learning comes in much small increments, build upon the earlier learning (think mature age student trying to go back to university).

Now to some degree the experience needed for the next level of scholarship/training etc does already scale, but the exponential scale of it is out of wack with the benefits it provides (seeing that it is a shared mechanic with normal unit levelling--no surprise there). So IMHO, either the rate of level gain should be lower, or the bonus each level provides should be. And in either case, to be perfect (again IMHO) lower here actual means scaled better.

 

[Pazyryk]

The first equation above could be changed to reduce the beakers; change /200 to /400, for example (all of the lines with "--" are disabled, basically left-over from earlier code changes). g_mod is the GP modifier (in this case, Scholasticism) and scienceModifier is the city's % adjustment to science (100 being no adjustment). So it's basically GP Mod / 2.

There will be some adjustments to all GP mods in v8. I'm not sure that we could (or should) try to balance it for 6000 turn games though.

 

[zoommooz11]

There will be some adjustments to all GP mods in v8. I'm not sure that we could (or should) try to balance it for 6000 turn games though.

Oh I totally agree, I just want to stay on top of the mechanics so I can tweak my own version. Very few people (one??) want 6000 turns.

Edit: Would something like this work??

g_int1 = floor{(g_mod/200) * scienceModifier / 200 + 0.5}

That way the city percentage (ie for libraries etc) would remain unchanged but the GP component of research would be halved

 

[Calavente]

zoommooz11: that would make it g-mod*sciencemodifier / 40000.... so instead of 90/turn for the GP, it will be, well, 0.45/turn.
if i understood correclty, this line corresponds to the science gained when a GP is in city, trying to produce science. its science gained depends also of the amount of science % buildings in the city...Etc.

so you'll want either replacing 200 by 1000 to get your scholar at 18/turn

or get something like :
g_int1 = floor{(g_mod^0.9) * scienceModifier / 200 + 0.5}
with ^the signe for exponent... but I don't know the actual spelling in lua
and 0.9 can be 0.95 or 0.8 or 0.7 depending on the diminishing return you want.
(but not very good)

another one that is nice is (1.5*Ln(g_mod)^2+1)
that one gives more benefit that the above equation until g_mod = 20.. but less when g_mod inreases again above that (it would work well for your purpose if g_mod were to be the level of the unit... which iirc it is not :/)

anyhow, the adequat equation will depend much on the values of g_mod

 

[zoommooz11]

Ah I see my mistake (I think).

I assumed that g_int1 was the total research of the city, and did not realize that the scholarship bonus interacted with the cities research buildings. So two sages of equal scholarship level, in two different cities could produces very different beaker amounts depending on the buildings.

Therefore, I think just modding the /200 to /400 (as Pazyryk suggested) will suffice. Do you know if all of the GP rates work this way? (ie warrior training/help build units).

 

[jekke]

I'll maybe say something not widely accepted here, but I totally don't see a problem with scientists generating ten times more science than cities. Dumb farmers and miners can't do science; all they're good for is making food and getting metal out of the ground, just like their ancestors did. You need highly educated specialists to invent new things; simply having 10^n people who live together and hoping that one day one of them comes up with a brilliant idea is not going to work. Ok maybe you can get as far as wheel and irrigation, but that's certainly it.

I always hated how science is implemented in Civ 5 where larger cities is the answer to everything. If you look at the list of the most populated countries in the modern world, you might think the scientific output of the Netherlands (merely for example!) should be laughable.

I woudl say, a regular citizen could give smth like 1 beaker per turn, a scientific specialist in a library or uni could give 5 or 10, and a great scientist could give from 5 (or 10) bpt on, depending on his/her level. In order to progress, a nation should employ specialists; a nation without scientists should not progress beyond irrigation and wheel. With an exception of warriors and mages helping research military and magical techs, respectively.

 

[Calavente]

jekke : we agree (I think)...
but a GS giving 90 bpt vs a city giving 10 is a bit too much.

however a size 10 city giving 10
a size 10 city with 2 specialists giving 20 (ie, each specialist giving 5)
and a GS giving 10-20 (depending on level) might be more balanced.