Science 4000BC

[duke o' york]

We know nothing. I mean, we've got a fair idea of how to build some roads and irrigate the lands around but we don't know anything we can show off to other civs.
So we'll have to get going then. With the plan as it appears now, we won't have a city for a couple of turns at least and so we'll have to make up for this by refining our research. I would assume that we all want to go for Monarchy first off so that we can cut our corruption and research important techs quicker. With nothing to begin with we'll need Alphabet, Code of Laws, Ceremonial Burial and Monarchy to achieve our dream of King Dell's coronation. Apart from these techs, which do not necessarily need to be researched in that order - maybe we want CBur before CoL? - what do we want to fall back on? I would like to suggest Bronze Working so that we can build the Colossus when we come across a suitable SSC site and also so we can get on the way to Currency and Trade. Those who remember the succession games that began on Hawaii might like to suggest Map Making in case we find ourselves surrounded by vast oceans, while those whose strategies do not rely on WLTP days for growth might like to propose Masonry for the Pyramids or even so that the paranoid can build the Great Wall.
Science will dictate our options and all our future actions will depend on how techinically advanced our troops are and which improvements we can build in our cities. We need you to play a part in this most important of the empire's concerns!

 

[Zwelgje]

I'm always quite fond of bronze working to build Colossus and start a nice SSC. I always hate to lose the Colossus to another civ as the Colossus remains active for a very long time and thus gives you a big advantage in the tech race.

 

[mordhiem]

If I had to proritise the order we get the techs in then I would go:

Alphabet
Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Bronze Working

The Colossus is just to valuable to let another Civ get, but, of course, Monarchy Monarchy Monarchy!

 

[Kev]

One often finds that there must be a detour of one tech before they get to Monarchy (barring a good hut popping or tech trade). I think it has something to do with the idea of NOT being offered three techs in a row from the same area or something. Should we NOT have a choice of a Monarchy prerequisite (or Monarchy itself), then a detour through bronze working would not be bad (or map making should we find ourselves on a very small island).

My first choice would be ceremonial burial as I find on diety level I do build some temples early.

Now, there was some discussion a long while back about which techs will be available to study each turn and which ones will not. I seem to remember that someone may have found that the first tech in alphabetical order will remain available each and every time. Is this true? Anyone have an idea on this?

If it is true, I'd suggest the following:

Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws
Alphabet
[Likely detour tech]
Monarchy

With Alphabet being first in alphabetical order, it would guarantee that we'd get three techs in before we'd have to detour (after alphabet, I think that bronze working is the next highest in alphabetical order). Taking our detour later would allow us to know more about our starting position before we have to make a choice as to a 'detour tech' and let us decide better if we'd like Bronze Working, Map Making, Writing, or whatever.

Like I said, this is based on a theroy that may actually be all wet. I'll have to go look this up and report back - unless anyone would like to verify this with their own wisdom.

 

[starlifter]

Since we have not begun producing our first beaker, we can't see our science. Using Kev's suggestion:

Note: Assumed Tech choices are in Boldface.

FIRST ADVANCE CHOICES:
(Done: none)

Alphabet (Alp)
Bronze Working (BW)
Ceremonial Burial (CB)
Horseback Riding (HBR)
Masonry (Mas)
Pottery (Pot)
Warrior Code (WC)



SECOND CHOICES:
(Done: Alp)

Bronze Working
Ceremonial Burial
Code of Laws (CoL)
Horseback Riding
Map Making (MM)
Writing

(Unavailable on this turn: Mas, Pot, WC)


THIRD CHOICES:
(Alphabet, CB)

Bronze Working
Map Making
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing (Wri)

(Unavailable on this turn: Code of Laws, Horseback Riding)


4th CHOICES:
(Alp, CB, BW)

Code of Laws
Currency
Horseback Riding
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code

(Unavailable on this turn: Map Making, Writing)


5th CHOICES:
(Alp, CB, Wri, CoL)

Currency
Horseback Riding
Map Making
Monarchy
Writing

(Unavailable on this turn: Masonry, Mysticism, Pottery, Warrior Code)


This is in keeping with Kev's proposal, which was very logical for Monarchy ASAP.


If we take Alp-CB-BW-CoL-Mon, then Choice 6 will be:

Currency
Map Making
Masonry
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing


Either Way, the path after #6 could be: Curr-Lit-Mys-PHILOSOPHY-TRADE

The choices that this point (#12) would be:
HBR, MM, Mas, Med, Pot, Rep, WC.

BUILD MARCO POLO, Backfill techs as necessary thru swapping, plus direct the AI research.


This would get us Philosophy at Tech #10, barring earlier swaps or Hut tech.

Wonders can be "started" earlier, and switched when we get the tech, like Colossus and Hanging Gardens and Pyramids. We will not be able to obtain all 4.... the most Critical is Colossus, given the choices, as all the others can be captured. HG is nice to have in the Colossus city, but not essential. Marco Polo will be more valuable, in terms of Gold and Techs, than any wonder in the early game. So very likely, the 2 key wonders will be Colossus and Marco Polo. Marco Polo also make the Great Library (300 shields) an almost total waste for the Human, and MPE is only 200 shields.

So.... them's my thoughts....

EDIT: Shorted writeup quite a bit.

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Dear Kev!

Are you sure, that we can get Code of Laws BEFORE Alphabet?

Dear Starlifter!

If you can get by some Divine Power knowledge about possible future technology trees, can you reveal - what result of first picking Ceremonial Burial?
Something deep inside my heart whispers me that in Second Picking we would have Alphabet in any case - then main problem we will get in Third picking - where some blasted luck can hide Code of Laws from valid picking. (Usually it is reason for me go in that chain: Alphabet - Ceremonial Burial - Code of Laws - smthng - Monarchy. In Deity level AI don't like give us Code of Laws after Alphabet, and Monarchy after Code of Laws. I don't know - why, I simply know it .)
You show what technology branches appeared after Alphabet as first pick, then why do not go in Ceremonial Burial path picking?

Brgds & thnks, Alex.

 

[Kev]

Eep. OK, ignore my blathering.

Kev is too fried to pay very close attention to himself. And his new habit of referring to himself in the third person continues to worry all..

Upon edit: All things considered, I'd rather take a detour tech that would allow us to at least begin a wonder. This would lead me to choose Bronze Working or Map Making over Writing (though I do like those early dips). Even with Map Making, we could have the SSC start the Lighthouse and switch to the Colossus once we have BW. We could even have another city start the same wonder in an effort to get some other ancient wonder - being the domain of the Domestic Minister anyway.

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Excuse me for bothering, but - another issue.
I'm not sure, but if you know that Creator of Our World (known as Smash) is known by his cunning & devilish mind, then - I would vote for Bronze Working as first picking choice.
Neighbouring Russians can be good excuse to produce our first Phalanx as soon as possible. (Good & benevolent neighbours in our conditions is more dangerous then Barbarian till "barbarian attack" time.) By the way - if nearest hut reveal some money or knowledge to us, it is advisable by my humble opinion go:
1) to the Horseback Raiding BEFORE Philosophy or some another hanky-panky highbrow gadgets, because Warriors is waste of production by its final meaning and you MUST to reveal our map as soon as possible (if it have great landmasse);
2) to the Philosophy BEFORE some Horses**t Raiding or another Iron Pantyhose racket, because early scientific boost is more important then Map revealing (if we is placed on some lonely island). By the way - Trireme is 40 Shields, that is advisable to spend on some Early Wonder, because Knowledge is Power, - not some wooden bathtub in high South waters. (We are on South - near South Pole, as we can see - thank to Starlifter.) Do you know about South seas? Roaring Forties, maybe? It's advisable for me go to Caravel construction & go to open sea on the Real Ship - not in cat's tray ! This is simpler via Philosophy path, not directly through Map Making

Then let's pop the hut - see results - reveal some map - come to Monarchy - and ONLY AFTER that decide our scientific path: swords or plough will be our weapons. (Our scouting around would reveal enough vital information till that moment.)

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

 

[MonkE]

Since this game is partly educational: Starlifter, would you say more about how and why Marco Polo is so important for *this* game.

I do like your proposed early tech sequence, but of course, game events have a way of interfering with plans...

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Excuse me again, but I didn't see another subtle moment in Starlifter tech sequences in time.

It's advisable, that Second pick (after Alphabet) must be Code of Laws, but no Ceremonial Burial. Usually we can't get Code of Laws AFTER Alphabet, then we must take this opportunity without any second thought. (Excuse me - this possible Russians in our vicinity IS good Second & Third & any other else thoughts in our situation.) It's very big chance that AI will give us Ceremonial Burial as Third picking! And it's very fat chance that we will get Monarchy as Fourth picking in this game! Yum... Yum... What's chewy proposition... Our wheels is begin spin really fast if Monarchy will be our Fourth pick!!!

Dear Starlifter, can you provide us by this information:

Can Divine Power give us Ceremonial Burial as Third pick (After Alphabet & Code of Laws.) (I think probability of that is more then 80%.)

Can it give us Monarchy as Fourth pick?? (After Alphabet, Code of Laws & Ceremonial Burial). (I think probability of that is around 55-60%).

If - YES on both question, then WE GO!

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

 

[starlifter]

Dear Starlifter, can you provide us by this information:

Can Divine Power give us Ceremonial Burial as Third pick (After Alphabet & Code of Laws.) (I think probability of that is more then 80%.)

Can it give us Monarchy as Fourth pick?? (After Alphabet, Code of Laws & Ceremonial Burial). (I think probability of that is around 55-60%).

If - YES on both question, then WE GO!

1. Your proposed sequence:
A-CoL-CB is not possible. 0% chance, because the choices at #3 would be: BW, MM, Mas, Pot, WC, and Wri.

However, this would work:

A-CoL-BW-CB-Monarchy


2. Not possible at Deity to have Monarchy as your #4 tech, unless you get certain hut help, which is next to impossible.

What is slightly more possible is if you get exactly one Hut tech, and it is one of the #3 techs --- and do it before finishing #2, or get real lucky and pop the tech your are researching in #3. But you are still going to pay #5 science to research Monarchy... there is no reasonable way around that. If you pop lots of huts, and get more techs, you are almost guaranteed to pay #6 or #7 tech const to get Monarchy. The AI is slightly more predisposed to give you semi-worthless techs like MapMaking and Warrior Code and especially Horseback Riding, when it yields a tech early on. Tech like CoL are possible, but (in my own testing) less likely if those 1st 3 are still available.

One tech you pretty much never want is Philosophy. You don't get the free advance if a hut gives it to you.



PS, The techs you can choose at any given point are not random... With a given choice of prior techs, you can predict exactly what you will have available upon completing the next advance. Normally, I don't bother.... I just take it as it comes. But since this is a slow paced game, I discuss it for the benefit of all.

PPS, The 5-techs to Monarchy is well known by many people... I never deviate from it anymore, in a standard rules random map, since fast Monarchy is so much more efficient than Despotism. The only real question is what to take at tech #3.... usually you don't know enough of the map to take MapMaking, so BW & Wri are the only real choices, depending on how well your capital city is doing making its spawn settler(s) before starting the wonder. High shield output means take BW, low means take writing, as a general guideline. The one not chosen should generally be taken at #6 (right after Monarchy), assuming Raging Hordes.

 

[starlifter]

I just noticed the other posts of you and Kev.

by A_Bashkuev:

Are you sure, that we can get Code of Laws BEFORE Alphabet?

???? If I said CoL comes before Alphabet, it is a typo. I think I always started with Alphabet, right?

by A_Bashkuev:

If you can get by some Divine Power knowledge about possible future technology trees, can you reveal - what result of first picking Ceremonial Burial?

In early game, I know all the basic combos. Anyone can open a game and use Cheat Mode, plus manual entry. Slow Thinker and others have refined the basic algorithm of tech order, and ST even made a DOS program to compute it. If you choose Ceremonial Burial first, you will have only 2 choices at tech #2: Alphabet and HBR. You would take Alp. Then CoL would be blocked at #3, so you take MM, Wri, BW, Mas, Mys, Pot, or WC. Normally, take BW (or Wri). Tech #4 will block MM and Wri (assuming BW at #3), and CoL will be there. Take it. Then at #5, Choose Monarchy!!

Then get to Philosophy as quickly and directly as possible, and get Trade. Then do what is necessary, after using Marco Polo to strategicaly swap techs, swap maps, direct AI research, extort gold, etc. Get to Monothiesm & JSB quickly. Game situation pretty much dictates research after Trade.


by MonkE:

Since this game is partly educational: Starlifter, would you say more about how and why Marco Polo is so important for *this* game.

The game is at Deity, and the AI has scinece and production advantages that are most efficently delt with by only discovering techs you actually need in the early game... Marco Polo can yeild over a dozen techs, at the lesiure and timing that the human wants. It can tell you exactly who is building what wonder, and in what city. In some cases, you can even cause th AI to build a wonder for you... you simply need to go capture when they are done, or when you want it. In some cases, you even have something better: the AI builds it in a non-capital city, and you see it with Marco Polo, and simply take a Dip and go revolt or subvert the city. This allows you to concentrate on the critical wonders... the ones that muct bet built in your SSC (Super Science City).

You can do lots of things with MPE.... ally, extort, check wealth, check empire expansion, direct AI research, gift the Key Civ, map swap. MPE is almost too powerful for a Human to possess in early game. The earlier you get it, the more powerful it is. I do not give up Colossus to get MPE, if it comes to that choice. I will give up Pyramids, HG, and other ancient wonders, however.

But my suggestions should not be construed as the only way to do things... there are many strategies, and almost all will eventually work. Again, my suggestions (like early MPE) should be viewed as one possiblility of our empire. People may want to try such things in their own games, even if we (as a Democracy) choose other ways to go.




Back to A_Bashkuev:

You show what technology branches appeared after Alphabet as first pick, then why do not go in Ceremonial Burial path picking?

You can switch the order, in that particular case. The key is that Tech #3 will block both CB & CoL (unless you have both A & BW, since these 2 are alphabetically before Cer in the rules.txt).

There are only ways to do this:

A-CB-BW-CoL-Mon
A-CoL-BW-CB-Mon
CB-A-BW-CoL-Mon
A-BW-CB-CoL-Mon
CB-A-BW-CoL-Mon
BW-A-CB-CoL-Mon
BW-CB-A-CoL-Mon

(Assuming BW as junk tech)

Choose whatever you desire at Tech #3 (a wonder tech is good, as Kev suggested).

Without hut help & swap help, that is the only way to get to Monarchy by #5.



Big note: All my discussions about specific tech order is for this game only, which has zero starting techs. Due to the way the game works, if you have a starting techs, you need to recompute what will be available. However, the cluster of CoL, CB, and Monarchy are all Choice C techs... that is, every 3rd turn, these 3 will not be available, except for the 1st one as listed in the order of the Rules.txt (and the link in my Signature block... see the Official Tech Abbreviations section for the exact order)
Alphabet is a Choice A tech, along with MM and Wri. BW, Mas, Mys, Pot, and WC are Choice B techs.


Starting from ZERO inital techs, Choice A will be blocked. Alphabet is available because it is 1st Alphabetically. When you have 1 tech, Choice B will be blocked (except for BW, since it is 1st Alphabetically). When you have 2 techs, Choice C will be blocked....When you have 3 techs, Choice A is blocked again. This cycle continues the entire game. Just remember the first tech alphabetically (of all possible ones you have the prerequisites for) will be exempt from exclusion, and be listed as an available choice.


Hence, the choices are not random .

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Dear Starlifter!

From my very old experience (when I was restless & wanted to have my score as high as possible) when I had unforgivable Sin of Saving-and-Reload behaviour I've met couple of Philosophy hut science advantage.
The First time of such experience was in my most innocent times, when I didn't know about AI would warn me about somebody had already acquired Philosophy.
Well, I pop blasted hut didn't find second Technology & decide that some blasted Viking had already got blasted thing. After couple of turns, when I've got my researched technology I've got... surprise, surprise! - another Technology immediately after in the same turn!
I remembered this wisdom & popped another huts without any fears. Every time when I popped Philosophy, I've got my next technology after finishing Research on already researched.

Well, I've got another problem after that - if you pop hut & find Invention or Gunpowder all other huts will never yield you technology at all! (But it is a good thing, because blasted neighbours never get any real weird thing from the huts after that moment. Let's imagine that some jerk acquire Nuclear missile from the hut in Middle Ages... Whew... It's scary proposition! ).

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Dear Starlifter!

I never heard earlier about three tiers of Techs in Civ II.
It's very intriguing & interesting. Can you provide me some link to lists of all three tiers in alphabetical order, please?

It'll impact my game skill in very sudden direction.

(I computed my probabilities from some datasheet created by me after couple of hundreds games. OK - I know now this was a complete waste, but if you provide me this list, well... I will got my result in any case!)

Oh, maybe somebody knows about probability in Second Skill acquiring in Heroes of Might & Magic III? I've got some weird spreadsheet about this probabilities, but it is - from coockoo nest!
For example: Leadership acquiring in this spreadsheet is 10 8 5 3 - 6 5 3 where Might Heroes is (Kni, Over, Beast....)
OK, do you see fun here? Knight can get his Leadership Secondary Skill with factor "10" probabilities. Joke is - all Knights have already got this Secondary Skill! Then - it's probability must be - of course - higher. But after couple of hundreds tests (I gave to Hero couple mils of Exp via Disk Editor thing) I found that - this probs don't work: if we count all Skills around; if we count only Advanced getting, and if we try to count all getting from Advanced to Expert level.

Well, this question is out of topic here, but maybe somebody something know about this subject. (I just like all Probability issues ).

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

 

[A_Bashkuev]

Thanks All!

I found it - in "search" mode print "oedo's unfinished" (courtesy of Smash) & in some tread you will found Smash's link on some very old tread on Apolyton forum where some guy "Oedo" reveal this Mystery.

Thnks & brgds, Alex.

 

[starlifter]

Hmmm... I see my entire post that I made in reply yesterday is missing for some reason. My browser crashed last night, and that must have trashed it.

Anyway, Oedo and Slow Thinker figured & refined the details. Here is a link.

Tech availability is basically for 2 of 3 times, based on the order of the techs in the rules.txt file. The first tech (alphabetically) is always available, even if it would normally be hidden. I simply group the techs into 3 piles... A, B, and C. Then follow the pattern each time you get to choose and advance. You adjust the pattern based on the extra techs you have, or that you discover via huts & swapping.

Oedo also discoverd the Oedo year pattern of xxxoxxxoxxxoxxxo for coming out of Anarchy after a revolution or gov't change. The science pattern is ooxooxoox.

I had unforgivable Sin of Saving-and-Reload behaviour

Actually, the manual suggests save-and-reload, but it's more fun to play without reloading.

Can you provide me some link to lists of all three tiers in alphabetical order, please?

You already have it.... it's the techs listed in your rules.txt. Every 3rd tech is part of the same group.

I computed my probabilities from some datasheet created by me after couple of hundreds games. OK - I know now this was a complete waste,

It was a mystery of the game for all of us for a long time until Oedo figured out the simple pattern.

Oh, maybe somebody knows about probability in Second Skill acquiring in Heroes of Might & Magic III?

No idea. Never played it, and probably never will... too many games in the world, so I only play a few .

Well, I've got another problem after that - if you pop hut & find Invention or Gunpowder all other huts will never yield you technology at all!

Invention (by anyone) stops the Hut discoveries. Since Gunpowder is after Invention, it should not be possible to get GP via a hut., assuming standard game files. If you or someone finds an exception, please post the.SAV and rules.txt and game.txt.

 

[Leowind]

[QUOTE
There are only ways to do this:

A-CB-BW-CoL-Mon
A-CoL-BW-CB-Mon
CB-A-BW-CoL-Mon
A-BW-CB-CoL-Mon
CB-A-BW-CoL-Mon
BW-A-CB-CoL-Mon
BW-CB-A-CoL-Mon

(Assuming BW as junk tech)

Choose whatever you desire at Tech #3 (a wonder tech is good, as Kev suggested).

Without hut help & swap help, that is the only way to get to Monarchy by #5.[/B][/QUOTE]

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly here, any of these paths will get us to Monarchy in 5 tech choices? If so, then I would suggest doing Ceremonial Burial first and follow that path, just to have temples available ASAP should we decide to build any this early. I typically play to avoid having to build temples for awhile, but I know different folks have different strategies and styles; we should be prepared.

 

[Kev]

Agree with Leowind.

Did anyone notice that #3 and #5 are the same on that list. Ah, I think they're both good to go!

 

[mordhiem]

Hmm, I would prefer to go:

BW-CB-A-CoL-Mon

Temples early on are not essential, we would only need them once we get a city to 3 pop and in Despotism martial law can keep the pesants happy until 5 pop. The Colossus however is vital to our SSC city and we definatley do not want the AI getting to that first and building it in a poorly placed city as usual (so even conquest wouldn't get us it's full value). Also on a side note, we get Phalanx's from it as a bonus.

 

[starlifter]

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly here, any of these paths will get us to Monarchy in 5 tech choices?

Right. As long as one plays a non-scenario above the level of Chieftain, it is not possible to advance to Monarchy in less than 5 techs (unless you have a certain Hut combination or you get it from an opponent that has Monarchy before you reach tech 5).

@ Kev: Nice catch!

Here is the complete list of routes to 5-tech Monarchy:

EDIT: Moved this to Post #23 because of redundancy and simplified wording.