Science Discussion 3B: Technology after Alphabet

[Sigma]

We have finished Alphabet! Now we can trade techs - Click here for the tech trading discussion.

But let's not forget, we need to pick a tech to research as well! I think we need to try to get Iron Working as fast as possible so we can start gearing up for a war with Mongolia. Unless the Secretary of War says that it's not urgent, we should try to get it within the 17 turns of research that it will take to complete. My proposition is that we start Iron Working, and then check the trade page with Germany to see if they are willing to trade for it - if so, we trade for it and can move onto something else.

We should also be thinking about what we want to research after Iron Working. I was thinking about it for a little while, and then had a good discussion with Chillaxation, Whomp, Chieftess, and Pajka on IRC about it: I think we should try to get Drama after Iron Working. Drama gives us theatres, which are very good for speeding up culture, but they also give us the culture slider, and +1 happiness for each 10% culture. We're going to run into some serious happiness problems soon because of the lack of resources on our continent. We get double production speed of theatres because of the creative trait. Also, Drama leads to Philosophy, which founds Taoism. Even though it will take 26 turns, I think it is a good tech for us to get at this time.

Of course, there are a lot of other things we can do. We can get some of the quicker religious techs, but they aren't very valuable to us because we can't really do anything with them - we don't have any religions on our continent. There are a couple other techs that we can do, but they're even further away than Drama. Check the Ministry of Science Thread for the complete breakdown of what techs we have and which ones we can research.

Please post your thoughts, and whether or not you disagree with this analysis and proposition. If you disagree, of course explain why and what you would propose instead. Hopefully the discussion will stay on-topic this time.

The Spoiler is a chat on IRC with myself, Chillaxation, Chieftess, Whomp, and Pajka, about our technology situation.

Spoiler :

[13:14] Chillaxation: Sigma, I really want to say you have my support on the push for IW.
[13:14] Whomp: you guys should read "learning to walk" on the cost of not chopping by bradleyfeanor...very interesting
[13:14] Chillaxation: We need more grassland for cottages and it's only coming out from under jungle and exterior to our current borders.
[13:15] Chillaxation: There's not really a lot left on the peninsula excluding the capital.
[13:15] Sigma: thanks chill, there's 2 ways to get it though - start researching it now, or wait until germany is willing to give it up (and give them alphabet)
[13:15] Chillaxation: Is your sense that the Germans are working on IW?
[13:15] Sigma: they have it
[13:15] Whomp: won't trade it
[13:15] Sigma: they're just not willing to trade it yet
[13:16] Whomp: may open with alpha
[13:16] Whomp: should
[13:16] Whomp: i don't think there's a wonder for IW
[13:16] Sigma: I don't think that whether or not they're willing to give it up is based on what you have to give for it... I think it's more of how much they're willing to hold onto it
[13:16] Chillaxation: We could focus on top-branch techs and try to go for a late religion, but I'm bearish on that and I suspect most strong players will be, too.
[13:17] Chillaxation: And then, of course, trade the top branch for IW.
[13:17] Chillaxation: I worry about conceding too much manufacturing and military tech to the Germans with their gems position.
[13:17] Whomp: brb gotta go pound on the russian forum in a pbem..you guys need me foranythign?
[13:17] Whomp: anything*?
[13:18] Sigma: nah, you're good thanks
[13:18] Chillaxation: No, thanks for the update Whomp, wish I could have made it.
[13:18] Whomp: this will be in the background. i'll tell ya if i raze the celtic capital lol
[13:18] Chillaxation: Sigma - what's your leaning on trading versus developing it ourselves?
[13:18] Pajka: AI never trades tech that they've finished that turn ...
[13:19] Chillaxation: Lose Whomp, gain Pajka.
[13:19] Chillaxation: : )
[13:19] Pajka: we'll see in 1 turn if Germany really wants or not to trade the IW
[13:19] Chieftess: [14:03] <+Whomp> Con..CT should i rename the save?
[13:19] Chieftess: if you want
[13:19] Sigma: well, if we wait too long and expect them to trade it, we may screw ourselves over
[13:19] Chillaxation: That's my impression, too. What's your position on metal casting?
[13:19] Sigma: but if we start researching it and then they're willing in 5-6 turns, we've wasted those turns
[13:19] Whomp: ok SOS...i'll do it when i get back
[13:20] Sigma: metal casting is too far away, we'd be better off spending our time in something we can get sooner
[13:20] Pajka: Metal Casting is good boost for prod., but we aren't industrious, so forge will take looooong time to build
[13:21] Chillaxation: Forges always do, but if we hook up gems we get a two happiness bonus.
[13:21] Chillaxation: Sigma, the reason I ask is that we're going to have pretty chronic happiness problems until we get a religion.
[13:21] Pajka: you're right ... but then we have to get moving to found new city near them ...
[13:22] Sigma: and let's not forget about Drama, theatres are useful and we get double production on them
[13:22] Chillaxation: Gems + forge gets us two faces.
[13:22] Chillaxation: Sigma, that is a great point.
[13:22] Chieftess: I bet the other side of the world is trading like crazy...
[13:22] Chieftess: We're gonna wind up being the "New World".
[13:22] Whomp: well just look at mali
[13:23] Sigma: if we really need the happiness, theatres will help considerably
[13:23] Chillaxation: I've said on the forums that the sky's the limit for me on trade.
[13:23] Pajka: but on the other hand we probably will not build the colossus as we don't have many costal cities
[13:23] Chillaxation: Theaters are also the cheapest culture building post calendar.
[13:23] Sigma: exactly
[13:24] Chillaxation: Well, now we've got to breach the topic everyone hates, then.
[13:24] Pajka: we are creative! we should go for theaters soon as we build them twice faster!
[13:24] Chillaxation: What about a cultural victory?
[13:24] Sigma: ehh... I try to stay away from those unless I'm industrious
[13:24] Sigma: because you really need the wonders
[13:24] Chillaxation: Pajka, you and Sigma are absolutely right about that, and I feel slow for not having thought of it sooner.
[13:25] Chillaxation: What about GPP farming and great artist+cathedral spam?
[13:25] Sigma: it's okay chill, I just now thought of it
[13:25] Sigma: I wasn't thinking about how unhappiness was such a problem
[13:25] Chillaxation: I think a lot of players would be bored with the stasis of a cultural victory as well.
[13:25] Pajka: cultural victory ... well then we would need to build cultural buildings soon to be able to get the double cultural points after 1000 years
[13:26] Chillaxation: Sigma, we are going to be tearing our hair out in May.
[13:26] Pajka: and we still lack the religions
[13:26] Sigma: heh
[13:26] Chillaxation: We're all going to be going nuts thinking about how to make our people happy.
[13:26] Sigma: at least then I'll be affected by term limits
[13:26] Chieftess: We'll need cultural buildings like temples and such to help with a culture victory...
[13:26] Chieftess: And it's sorely lacking.
[13:27] Chillaxation: Drama is a fine goal, and focusing on upper-branch techs...can be a good way to get lower-branch techs AI tend to focus on.
[13:27] Chieftess: Especially on a Heathen Continent.
[13:27] Pajka:
[13:27] Chillaxation: Here's just another question, as long as we're all shooting it
[13:28] Chillaxation: If we're not going for cultural victory, are we interested in luxury slider spending?
[13:29] Chillaxation: Because that's when the real benefit from theaters comes in.
[13:29] Pajka: drama and music is nice path ... but we'll need some good units too ... like macemen or knights ... if we want to be ready to stand against Germans
[13:29] Sigma: well that's how we're going to fix the happiness issue
[13:29] Sigma: drama also puts us one step closer to philosophy
[13:30] Sigma: which founds taoism
[13:30] Chillaxation: There's an idea.
[13:31] Pajka: I think we should get the theaters soon to make use of our creative trait ... but IW and the swords would help a lot against Mongols
[13:31] Sigma: yeah so the question we haven't answered is... do we research IW ourselves or do we wait until Germany will give it to us?
[13:33] Pajka: wait 1 turn and then decide
[13:34] Chillaxation: What's our IW ETA?
[13:34] Pajka: we really don't know if they don't want to trade it or can't (they researched it this turn)
[13:34] Chillaxation: That's a good point.
[13:35] Chillaxation: 17 turns. Hrm.
[13:35] Sigma: IW is 17 turns. Drama is 26
[13:35] Pajka: meanwhile we can start something else and next turn change it to IW if Germans don't trade
[13:36] Chillaxation: I think that's a good plan, Pajka, if we get a DP who can remember to check the tech trade screen.
[13:36] Chillaxation: : )
[13:36] Chillaxation: Sometimes I goof in my games
[13:36] Chillaxation: ...hell, a LOT in my games.
[13:37] Pajka: who is the next DP ? Is it Tubby ?
[13:37] Chillaxation: It actually should be Bengeance.
[13:37] Chillaxation: Tubs played last term.
[13:37] Sigma: woohoo just did my 100th post
[13:37] Chillaxation: Congrates, sig
[13:38] Sigma: What if we start with IW, and then have the DP check the trade window every turn? Would that be too much to ask?
[13:39] Chillaxation: 26 turns is a really long time at this point.
[13:39] Chillaxation: No, I think that's a good idea also.
[13:41] Sigma: would you guys have a problem with me posting this chat log in my science discussion thread?
[13:41] Chillaxation: ::shrug:: Go ahead.
[13:41] Pajka: but it would be a loss to start IW and then get it in trade
[13:41] Chillaxation: Pajka?
[13:41] Pajka: yes, you can
[13:42] Sigma: I think we have some pretty good ideas here, I need to present them to the citizens in case there's something we're missing, or everyone just hates the idea
[13:43] Chillaxation: Like I say, it's a smart group. I'm pretty sure that they can see the twin problems of low commerce and luxury rareness.
[13:43] Sigma: yeah
[13:44] Chillaxation: It's really less of an "if" about IW, but "how," in my opinion.
[13:44] Pajka: Don't forget that there is a long river next to the mongols ...
[13:44] Pajka: If we take over, that will help too
[13:44] Sigma: yes we do need it, and I don't want it to take longer than the 17 turns if possible because we're probably going to start gearing up for war soon
[13:45] Pajka: and then in the end those gems you talked about are also nice boost to commerce
[13:45] Chillaxation: Yeah, but for the gems we need to engage in some serious talks about geography and settlement.
[13:46] Pajka: yes, that should be started very soon ...
[13:46] Chillaxation: @ Sigma - well said. I'd emphasize that point.
[13:46] Chillaxation: I think we can all agree that the Mongols are a little too close for even medium-term comfort.
[13:46] Sigma: ok, I'm going to post this stuff, we'll see what the citizens think

 

[Tubby Rower]

So what religions are left? budda, hindus, confusion, christians and jews are gone correct? that leaves islam and what else?

 

[Pajka]

Religions left are Islam and Taoism (as Sigma said we should move this way)

I will oppose the Sigma's proposal and say that now we could put Drama and in one turn check the possibility to get Iron Working from Germans via trade, if not, change to Iron Working (the beakers invested in Drama will not disappear and we won't lose any in case the Germans will trade)

We should also focus on Sailing. We should get it through trade or research. It would let us build Galley to try to find other civilizations and trade opportunities.

 

[Chillaxation]

I'm still tentative, but I'm leaning towards a turn of Drama, checking the tech trade screen, and then doing Iron Working ourselves if they won't trade. We'll be able to trade Drama for another manufacturing or military tech or two later, if we're lucky; we need grassland, and the only nearby open grassland is covered in jungle.

 

[Oldbus]

Christianity hasn't been founded yet.

 

[Chillaxation]

Allow me to add another note of tentativeness - is there any real way Germany will give up IW for Writing and Mysticism? If not, I think we should just plow for IW.

 

[Chieftess]

I suggest going for some religous techs. The AI knows that the early religions are taken, so they won't research them. The fact that our continent is devoid of any religion (Curt Sibling would love that...), I think it's safe to research religious techs to use those as a leverage for other techs like iron working and such.

 

[Strider]

Plow for Iron Working... and then as CT said, head straight for a religion.

 

[Chieftess]

Not sure if I'd research IW first, as others have it/probably are going for it. (Remember, the AI knows that it can't get the early religions, so yes, it's a "cheat" of sorts, but even the player gets the religion info). It's a Soren-induced strategy that we can use to our advantage.

 

[robboo]

I like what your saying chieftess...besides axes are fine against Mongolia...

 

[donsig]

Don't we need to know where the iron is especially if we're talking about scouting Mongol territory? I think we should get iron working now. No one wants to trade it to us so let's research it ourselves.

 

[Chillaxation]

Pajka pointed out that AIs don't ever want to trade techs on the turn they discover them - so there's a small chance that that's the only reason Germany won't trade. But I think it's unlikely that Germany would want to trade us IW for Writing and Mysticism.

 

[Swissempire]

i say we go for Drama and Taoism, and try to get iron working via trade. Gemany may be waiting for a better deal, and if we cement our russian relations, maybe we can get it from them!

Also, axeman should be good against mongolia, and there is no promise woiuld would even have iron access. That woul be quite IRONic if we don't!

 

[Strider]

Also, axeman should be good against mongolia, and there is no promise woiuld would even have iron access. That woul be quite IRONic if we don't!

That's the idea of getting Iron Working first, to make sure we have Iron access... and if not to plan accordingly.

 

[Sigma]

A poll has been posted here.

 

[Tubby Rower]

without much luxury resources, we will be population limited for a long time. We need to get a religion. Germany already has access to gems and AFAIK, that's the only "early" lux that's on our continent.

 

[Pajka]

Well, I guess that we can still get the nearest gems too, but we have to move on. Maybe we should start the discussion on next city location.