Science: Monarchy or Hanging Gardens?

[Leowind]

We've been trying to get to Monarchy for all the obvious reasons, but we are now in a situation where RC is building a wonder (Colussus), but we really want the Colussus in Elysium as our SSC (or do we?). RC is far enough along that there is a very good chance it will finish it's wonder before we can research Monarchy and then Pottery so it can switch to Hanging Gardens. So the question has been raised, do we want to modify our research goals yet again and go for Pottery before Monarchy?
It has also been suggested that we can move some workers around in RC to delay completion of the wonder. Whether we can delay it enough I don't know. If anyone else can provide more detailed info concerning that option please post here for the enlightenment of us all (hey, what happened to the enlighten smiley?). Anyway, that option has also been included.

Once this is sorted out, all other science research goals will remain the same.

edit: please help. I seem to be unable to post a poll. Is there a problem with the server?

The choices WILL BE:
-Monarchy (let RC build the Colussus and be our SSC. Elysium can build Hanging Gardens)
-Monarchy (move workers in RC to delay wonder building long enough to switch to Hanging Gardens after Monarchy is discovered. Elysium will be our SSC)
-Pottery (Elysium will be our SSC, RC will build Hanging Gardens)

 

[GaryNemo]

I would love to have Monarchy, because I suspect it changes the riot factor and quells unhappiness. And I would love to have Trade, so we can build the wonders in Elysium that many citizens want.

But the highest priority seems to be Pottery. Hanging Gardens will DEFINITELY allow us to build Size=2 cities for quite a while. In the What Wonders poll, still inchoate, people are wanting HG in RC and Colossus in Elysium. But RC will complete in 16 turns, fewer since there is support of the related idea to build a Warrior in 3 turns in Filler, march to RC, and put Elvis back to work in the production fields.

So the only choice is Pottery. Pray the fiends present that option.

Btw, that poll reveals that the voters are giving up on ever moving the Capitol to Elysium, although this issue can come up again, and surely will. The winds of happiness blowing from our Hanging Gardens will stimulate fresh hope. It seems to me that building HG in RC does not make the final decision, which city will be the SSC. But that's a discussion for a future century.

Too bad about the polling problem. I'm finding it very enjoyable. Btw, I'm not sure if that "Multiple" checkbox was always there. It's on the second screen, where I enter the poll choices. It may have appeared after I PM'd a Duke, of York iirc.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Monarchy should be our first goal. We can delay RC enough to allow us get to Monarchy and then a second tech before it finishes it's wonder.

Btw, no problems with posting polls that I know of....?

 

[GaryNemo]

Suppose we could pick either Monarchy or Pottery. We pick Monarchy, then next time, Pottery is not a choice? I don't know...

If we pick Pottery first, we can have the HG in fewer than 16 turns, say 14. That grants relief soon after we would get it from Monarchy anyway, seems to me. It also means we can begin to build Settlers instead of more Warrior guards, even hire Entertainers for a few turns until HG is built, and commence explosive growth. We're alone on this continent, likely. Pottery seems the safe path.

Btw, this variability of choice after the discovery of writing is the reason I suggest Civ1 only play a couple turns. The Chariot can explore NE a bit, and we learn whether or not we're researching Pottery - reducing many unknowns to few. Exactly what TFalls and Filler build is highly dependent on that. Briefly: if Pottery, Filler builds a guard to accelerate completion of HG, and TFalls builds a Warrior, then they both build Settlers. If not Pottery, the dance elongates, and what to build changes.

 

[Ren]

Go for Monarchy. We can delay RC (even if it means hunger for a few turns) and once we have Monarchy, Pottery will be researched quicker, too.

 

[duke o' york]

We can reduce RC to very few shields per turn by putting the workers in the ocean, which will have the added benefit of speeding up the tech we are researching by giving us more arrows. With Monarchy we can research the next techs quicker but wouldn't HG give us a WLTD in RC and mean that we'd get twice as many arrows? I'm afraid that I can't remember the effects of WLTD in Despotism but I'm sure it'll give better science.

 

[heliogabalus]

I'd say pottery, purely and simply for the monarchy-like happiness effects of the HG, the possibility that pottery might not be available for research after we discover monarchy and the necessity of getting a second wonder choice. I don't like the idea of halting production if not absolutely necessary.

Duke, I think in despotism WLTKD gives republic/democracy-like production. If not, at least monarchy-like.

 

[funxus]

I just tested WLTD under despotism, and it seems the production penalty experienced in despotism is taken away, i.e. the production is the same as in monarchy

 

[MonkE]

Under the circumstances, I'll pick pottery for HG in RC, then Monarchy, then Trade.

Having WLTD makes the delay of Monarchy not as painful, and doesn't require any reduction of production.

Elysium still has the better potential as the SSC due to the trade specials, but RC will still be a big trade producer. I'm guessing that happiness factors don't make it worthwhile to make RC the SSC.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Yes, WLTLD makes the city act as if it was the next highest form of government, which, in Despotisim would be Monarchy.

I'm telling you there are huge long term benefits to having HG in your SSC......

 

[GaryNemo]

Duke, I agree there are huge benefits. And it is time I reveal my secret hope. Build HG and Colossus in Regia Civitas. 2000 years ago, that was our plan... And although RC has less land than Elysium, and may never be as large, it has more ocean, and so may generate more trade. It is also farther North, reducing corruption during the long climb to Democracy. Or do we have Democracy already?

But the immediate concern is which Science next? And what happens with our 1000 years of Whale production in RC? Pottery and HG are still the clear choice for me. This is a Deity game, and the AI will surely soon be nipping at our heels. Btw, would You be willing to state the clear case for Monarchy in the newest poll? ... Please?

 

[duke o' york]

The fact that it has less land than Elysium means that it will not be able to celebrate to as high a population and we might miss out on a whole pile of scientists that would more than make up the trade bonuses of the ocean squares. Would anyone care to calculate the max city sizes of RC and Elsium, assuming that the jungles and stuff are grasslanded, and all squares possible have roads and farms? I'll try to have a think about it, but can't promise anything I'm afraid.

 

[funxus]

RC:
11 sea squares -> 22 food
10 land squares - > 40 food
+2 whales -> 2 extra
+1 fish -> 2 extra
22+40+2+2=66 food

Elysium:
7 sea squares -> 14 food
14 land squares -> 56 food
+1 wheat -> 2 extra
+ 1 whale -> 1 extra
14+56+2+1-> 73 food

Both cities have an uncovered special not counted in here.

66 food -> size 33 city
73 food -> size 37 city

4 extra scientist would give us 4 x 24b (with the right wonders) -> 96b extra
our trade routes would give us 12 extra arrows too.

I am not sure that my calculations are accurate, so please correct any mistakes.

 

[GaryNemo]

Thank you funxus. You would be a terrific official of our government! We need knowledgable citizens like you.

A question about the calculations: the 11 Sea squares mean 4 more trade, right? And that multiplies somehow, I'm not sure how to compare that to the "96b extra"...

And the opportunity cost of the years before 500 AD - 1000 AD, when RC can grow easily, no forest, and a Whale producing food vs the Silk that will drag food. Is that significant?

 

[Ren]

Don't forget that food routes can be made from other cities, so that eliminates food problems

 

[Leowind]

Monarchy: Duke of Marlbrough; Ren

Pottery: GaryNemo; heliogabalus; MonkE; duke o'york; Leowind

A few have added to the excellent discussion without expressing their wishes.

Civ1 plans to play tonight, so some resolution is needed on this issue. As of now, researching Pottery before Monarchy is winning, and I think I've been swayed myself to vote that way, which makes it 5-2, unless others clearly indicate additional votes the other direction, that will be our new research plan:

research Pottery next, then Monarchy

 

[duke o' york]

You can put me down for Pottery as well!