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Science -> Peaceful CV

Discussion in 'Strategy Section' started by Stalker0, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So lately I've been noting how much tourism depends on 2 critical late game techs (Telecommunications and Internet).

    In fact this techs are so important that I wondered, could you actually think of a CV as more of an SV? Was rushing with the power of science towards these techs actually superior than going a more culture focused strategy? I wanted to give it a go.

    I played Babylon, which is about as science focused as they come. The idea was to play a normal, non-CV focused game for most of the game. I was going to do the things I normally do until I got close to Radio, and then go "hey, a CV looks good, lets just go for that!"....then do a strong switch to a CV to see how viable it might be.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-7-22_4-0-42.png


    The Initial Plan

    So the goal is to play normally "aka not thinking about a CV". Policy Wise I went Progress -> Statecraft -> Rationalism.

    In general I worked all of my guilds for culture (which is a key source for progress that doesn't get as much base culture as tradition does), free GP went to GD or GS. My focus was science, not culture.

    The crux of the strategy relies on 2 things:

    1) Ability to faith buy Great Musicians (I do not think CV is viable without this, its literally like a fifth of your total key tourism in the late game, maybe more). Your goal is to buy 3 of them, so 10k faith will be needed.

    2) Wonder policy negation. The trick to this strat is beelining to CN Tower but at the same time having enough policies + policy reductions to immediately pick up the tower. Otherwise, we lose the entire point of getting to the tech quickly.

    So religion wise I took To the Glory of God and Prophecy. Glory of God is mandatory, no faith buy = no CV. Prophecy is theoretically not necessary if you can bag enough allies under Statecraft...but I find that in competitive games that is hard to do that late in the game. If I was to pick one weakness of the strat, its Prophecy...while its a nice belief it doesn't REALLY synergize like some other beliefs do with my science focused play, so it does feel like a conceit to make the CV work. Glory of god on the other hand is a rock solid belief in most situations, so I feel no guilt in picking it up.

    The Enemy
    So my enemy this game was going to be a tradition Morocco. And not just any Morocco, this is the 6/19 special (aka bugged) version that can build Kasbahs way more often than normal. This Morocco is death incarnate when it comes to CV....I would seriously have my work cut out for me.

    When I met him in the Renaissance, he was two techs ahead of science crazy Babylon, and with more policies to boot. Oh boooooy.

    Working the Plan
    I expand and do a medieval war with my best friend Korea, putting the hurt on Alexander and making him my vassal. That would be the last time I would need to do any real fighting, I placed a massive army on my shores, and other than a couple of war declares here and there, no one caused me any trouble.

    I ultimately expanded to 7 cities + 1 puppet from Greece. Smaller than a strong progress wide play but larger than most of my CVs. Ultimately the 7 cities fit the continent I was on, while there were other places to expand, none of them felt strong enough to warrant another city, so 8 cities it would be.

    Morocco was snowballing in science, so I set my spies to the task of leveling out the playing field. My spy would then proceed to die 6 times in a row (not an exaggeration), until finally getting 1 tech that only shaved off 2 turns for me. At that point I honestly thought Morocco was just going to curb stomp me.

    One thing I do at Archeology is making landmarks when appropriate instead of great works. for CV play I usually get all great works, as they scale like monsters in the late game, but I don't yet know I will be playing CV, and landmarks are generally better. The happiness would also be of help to me as you'll see below.

    I also build a hotel in my capital, mainly thinking it would push my tourism to the point where it would start benefitting my Trade routes, at least a little. Otherwise, I ignore them until the "CV plan" activates. One other advantage I had with this map, was it was heavily forested. So zoos were actually useful for me beyond the tourism, but the base tourism from the land was significant enough to be a help.

    WC wise I pushed for Scholars in Residents to give me a chance of catching up with Morocco in science, otherwise I play as many spheres as I can. This is my default play regardless of Victory Type, having some key permanent allies around your land is so nice even if I didn't need them for policy reductions.

    As I approach computers I check on my tourism. Morocco is blitzing ahead in culture (because of course he is), but everyone else in the world is pretty low. So it looks like with a focused strat of mad GM play...maybe Morocco could be overtaken. Lets give it a shot!

    Activating the Plan

    I start building hotels in my satellite cities, and turn my spies into thieves to grab great works. I start trying to time out my next GM to occur right after Telecommunications.

    Trade Route wise, everyone I can muster is going to Morocco. I am getting a large amount of yields, the only thing that is keeping me competitive with him, and it does generate a bit of tourism.

    I will say, a really nice benefit of this strat...is that Statecraft's tourism bonus is actually useful. Artistry's Open border bonus is garbage...no self respecting AI is going to give you open borders in the late game when you have a CV threat. Fealty's bonus is also very tough, the AIs you normally care about are often strong and want their own religion, and will fight you aggressively to maintain. You need a good amount of faith for your late game GMs, so you can't get into missionary wars with the AI too much. But Statecraft's bonus is easy, just send 1 TR and your off to the races. Now sanctions are always an option of course, but at least you can defend against that with some sphere and GD play to secure votes.

    Otherwise I just keep on trucking like normal.

    The Race to the Tower

    Its time for my ideology. Morocco is so ahead of me that he has already gotten freedom and secured the statue of liberty, its not looking good.

    My plan was to go freedom, but without the policy from the wonder, I was not confident I could make it happen. Further, my science was still lagging, there was a strong worry that Morocco would snipe the tower anyway....which would be game over for my CV.

    So I called an Audible, and went with Order for the stronger science. Further, I've been meaning to give these tourism policies a run for their money (see notes below).

    GP wise I had been buying the cheap 1k faith options...I knew I could that and still have a good faith pool for my endgame GMs. However, I was not confident in my position, so I bought an extra GS. I knew it would delay my GM buying a bit, but at this point I felt I had to make a move somewhere. I also bought a 1k engineer to prepare for the tower.

    With my bought GS combined with a natural one, I blitz to telecommunications. I immediately hit it with 2 GEs and finished it in 1 turn. SUCCESS!!!

    Ok the first major hurdle cleared.

    An Ordered CV

    So in general, Order does not have a good rep on the forum when it comes to CV. I decided to really give it a look and see what I could do with it.

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-7-22_4-31-29.png


    1) I started with Worker's Faculties (Tier 1). I had 0 coal in my entire area, so the 5 free factories + 4 coal from Slater mill gave me what I needed to field my factories. This honestly was critical to my success.

    2) People's Army (Tier 1) was next. This gives me a bit more culture, and again more free buildings to free me up for other work. However, the +2 happy was actually quite important as you will see below.

    3) Academy of Sciences (Tier 2). This was a compromise play. I had ideally wanted Cultural revolution at this point...however, I was still a good bit behind Morocco in techs. Further, I had not even gotten to the Research Lab tech when I picked this up, so this was a MASSIVE boost in science at the time. Ultimately I think the right decision to get to the CV techs that much quicker.

    4) Peace Land Bread (Tier 1). I need more happiness for my ultimate plan.

    5) Cultural Revolution (Tier 2). I was surprised at how good this actually was. The +5 tourism to great works is no joke, and many of the lesser civs went Order after me, so it helped me shore them up without any further work.

    6) Spaceflight Pioneers (Tier 3). I had hoped to get Great Leap Forward with my second Tier 3 and then get to massive leap ahead in tech towards the late game. This ultimately was a mistake, by the time I got to GLF I had already blitzed the tech tree. I wish I had just taken GLF at the get go. Personally, I still find the GE rush benefit pretty garbage on SS parts.

    7) Hero of the People (Tier 1). Normally this is the order policy I often take first or second. However, with a CV play, every late GM is critical. By delaying this policy for so long, I was able to snag another GM after telecom. It was not late enough for after Internet, so it wasn't super strong, but still gave me another 10k tourism bomb.

    8) Dictatorship of the Proletariat: This is the big one, my massive tourism surge. I get it so late that I was fearful that it wouldn't help, and I was dead wrong. Combined with all of the other happiness policies I had taken, I had no trouble dominating every civ in happiness, and so I got a full 50% bonus to all civs.

    Here's the thing, earlier tourism bonuses don't really matter, its the late crunch time bonuses that make all of the difference. I was getting a full surge right when I need it....when the GM bombs come. That 50% is a literal 50% increase to your GM bombs...its massive.

    9) Iron Curtain: By this point in the game I had finished the tech tree, so GLF was useless. With iron curtain I could set up ITRs for the best building value possible.

    The Final Push

    Morocco snagged Apollo and Sydney first, so I went north on the tech tree and got hubble. It was neck in neck.

    Once I hit Internet, I activated my super GM rush, which looks like the following:

    1) 3 Faith bought GMs
    2) 1 GM from International Games (always select this as the WC resolution right before internet comes up, so you can time it to get the GM a few turns after internet).
    3) 1 GM from a musician guild.

    Ultimately I really fumbled the timing of my guild GM...and he came out right before Telecom, which is almost useless, so I had to wait a long time for another one. Ideally with this rush, the last GM is your third faith bought GM, for me I had to wait another 6 turns after that for my musician guild GM...which was a big waste at such a critical time.

    But with all of the pieces now in place, it came down to pressing end turn, and seeing how it played out.

    The Final Result

    I secured the Influential on Turn 358, and had a 9 turn CV build ahead of me, for an end game Turn of 367. However.... I managed a SV on Turn 360...7 turns earlier (I think Morocco had 2 parts left, so it was truly down to the wire).

    I had generated 496k tourism against Morocco, which is actually much higher than some of my previous totals.. Part of that was the incredible amount of boredom that Morocco had (sometimes as high at 90%). This gave my bombs a tremendous end game kick, which I think was a big factor.

    So the strat failed this time, but honestly considering the brokenness of current Morocco, I was impressed by how well it did....and how well Order panned out in this game. If I had managed my GM a bit better, who knows this could have been a CV a few turns before the SV.


    Ultimately I think this strat is worth considering as a possible backup strategy if you think it will let you win quicker than SV, and I'm going to give it another try in the near future.
     
    Pill, Kim Dong Un, 2506 and 3 others like this.
  2. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Yeah, CV shouldn't depend on techs that much, because it's too similar to SV
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Great post, thanks for sharing in such detail.

    I wonder if boredom being such a large factor affects CVs too much? My understanding is that the boredom hurts even if you have happiness available to compensate for it. For instance in this situation, it seems that Morocco would have benefited in terms of tourism by locking growth to reduce boredom (even if his overall happiness was fine).

    Also I'm shocked that you left that Greek city so close to your capital all game.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think boredom is way too much of a swing factor, one game it’s almost nothing, next game it’s nearly doubling your tourism.

    hehe Greece got that city after he became my vassal, on emperor I never see vassals rebel, so I was a magnanimous overlord :)
     
  5. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    Both CV and DV depend heavily on techs too. I think @CrazyG showed the power of science for both victory conditions in earlier play throughs.
     
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  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I typically don't put much thought into whether I want to win by culture/diplomacy/spaceship until late in the game. I just try to get ahead in science and culture, and usually if you do, one of those three will come along.
     
  7. InkAxis

    InkAxis Warlord

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    It definitely does feel to me that CV depends on tech and CN tower too much. And the AI loves to pass the tourism ban. I would say that generally CV should be buffed but CN tower should be nerfed.
     
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  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think DV is fairly science independent. Yes you ultimately need techs to get the key resolutions you need....but if your tech is slower that's just more time to secure more spheres and shores up alliances. Aka I can still strengthen my DV play without getting key techs...but with CV until you have the key ones your really not going to do much that will change your tourism game in any meaningful way.
     
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  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So I went Round 2 with this strategy. Babylon again on Emperor

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-7-22_19-31-41.png


    Most of my fundamentals were the same as the first run. I created a peaceful border with Iroquois for most of the game (he got testy towards the end but he couldn't break my line). I also had a full 8 cities this game instead of 7 +1 puppet....so a little heavier on my tourism penalty. My other big change, I removed Prophecy from the plan. Ultimately I wanted to see if this strat could really hold up without that "crutch".

    Portugal was my opponent this game, and was not nearly as strong as the broken Morocco was. However, he had significantly less boredom throughout the game, closer to 20-30 instead of the 70-90 I had seen with Morocco. He got to Ideology ahead of me but not by too much, and actually chose Order. So this is actually a really nice advantage of going Science over Culture for CV....if my main rival picks first this allows me to pick ideology to counter. The trick of course is to not be too far behind that you can still snag the ideology wonder, in which case matching his ideology gives you a very solid starting point. So I took Order as well.

    A look at Order

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-7-22_19-39-54.png

    So here was how Order went down for me.

    1) People's Army (T1): Gives me a solid boost of culture and happiness.

    2) Double Agents (T1): So one thing I am learning as I really study the intricacies of the CV.... GW stealing is really REALLY good. I can send regular old thieves in 1-2 star cities and still get GW every 10 turns or so, sometimes even less. So having 3 extra spies here to drain GW even faster is actually a very solid CV advantage, much more than I expected. I would go so far as to officially call double agents a "CV Policy".

    3) Cultural Revolution (T2): Unlike the last run, I wasn't under so much science pressure this game, so I could afford to get this right off the bat. It gives me the 34% against portugal and the +5 tourism to GW...plus the extra great works pumping in from double agents....this was a massive tourism surge.

    4) Hero of the People (T1): I once against delayed this policy to try and get a good timing to generate a great musician for a solid bomb. Ultimately the timing doesn't work that well, its probably more efficient to get this as the first tenant, and pick up a GW or GS to push yourself along a bit quicker. Then you can get people's army third if you still need the happiness to make Dictatorship work.

    5) Dictatorship of the Proletariat (T2): I once again had no trouble dominating the AI in happiness, and so an extra 50% tourism on top.

    6) GLF (T3): I had a perfect timing, GLF actually push me right into Telecommunications to start the party.

    7) Communism: Honestly you can pick anything you want here, we already have taken what we need from Order.

    8) Five Year Plan and Iron Curtain. I've already gotten all the tourism weapons I need. These two policies are to give my capital maximum production to finish out the culture wonder a turn or two faster.



    A Sneaky GM Trick

    So one of the key things I keep trying to do is time my guild GMs to come out right after Internet, and working that timing has proven tricky. However, I have realized a sneaky plan!

    1) Watch your GM progress to when it is just about ready to pop a GM (on my runs, this was the 1150 point GM)

    2) With one turn left, sell off your musicians guild. Your GM progress will stop cold.

    3) Rinse and repeat in your other cities.

    4) One turn before Internet, rebuild all of your guilds in the right cities, and then reload your musicians. You will then immediately get a GM, and another one about 12 turns later (give or take a turn depending on any extra GP bonuses).

    This trick is quite easy to do, and ensures that you get 2 GMs right when you need them.

    The Conclusion

    Hit Internet on Turn 335, was Influential with all civs by Turn 340, and completed the CV by Turn 352. I hit an annoying snag, as Persia was just barely influential, and actually dropped back down to popular during the build, this cost me 3 turns to send a GM over to finish the job. I timed out the SV and it would complete on Turn 358....so this was a solid CV over SV victory.

    I will say that in this Portugal was such a pushover compared to Morocco that I had way more GMs than I needed (I only needed 3 out of the 6 I got). Seeing this, I probably could have performed the rush after Telecom was out, and then let me natural tourism push me over....I probably would have saved a lot of turns in the long run. But this is something you could guage with experience, if your opponent seems weaker, you can rush early and finish the job. If he seems like a juggernaut, hold the rush until Internet for maximum power.

    So in quick summary:

    1) Order has some real CV tools if you know how to use them.
    2) Stealing GWs is stupidly good.
    3) Using Musician guild timings by selling your guilds, you can throw down 2 GMs immediately 12 turns apart whenever you need them. This combined with faith buying, you can generate 5 GMs pretty much at any point in the end game to finish the job (+1 for international games if you need even more).
    4) So far CV with a hard science civ feels very doable.
     
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  10. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    I never get why buildings have to be sellable. It feels cheap selling them for the final victory push in a SV (with Space Procurements), or in this case, selling Musician Guilds to time Great Musician birth.

    Of course, the SV thing can be done by disbanding units too, and I don't think AIs know that trick, so I don't do that either.
     
  11. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I'm the opposite and tend to have a plan that I want to execute before I even start the game. Waiting until late game seems risky, though. There are some mid game choices that can have a pretty big impact on your victory chances- for example, not taking Statecraft means Diplo gets a lot harder. Science victory without Rationalism can be tougher. You don't find those mid game choices very limiting?

    You don't need to research the techs that unlock proposals yourself- they get unlocked for anyone to propose once any civ has researched them. It's why diplo is the best "come from behind" victory IMO.

    I think the main late game tech you miss out on if you're behind in tech is 'Globalization' which gives votes for diplomats in foreign capitals. You can win without it, though, by making up the votes from various other sources (religion, UA, policies, dominating CS alliances/embassies, etc).

    This makes me think of a good CrazyG style challenge: win a diplo victory while being an era+ behind the tech leader. Or maybe: win a diplo victory without building science buildings past libraries. It could showcase just how independent diplo is from science.
     
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  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't think this is too difficult. You can just play warmonger as a civ with some extra science (Russia maybe?)

    A more peaceful approach Germany or Austria might be able to get there.
     
  13. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Good point- would probably have to add "peacefully" to the challenge. I was definitely more thinking that it would be an Austria/Germany style game where they can artificially inflate their vote count and just let a science leader unlock proposals for them. I don't think it would be that hard but I do think it would showcase just how independent diplo victory is of science compared to culture victory where science is really important.

    For the record, I like that diplo is somewhat independent of science. I think culture victory should be made less tech dependent as well. I think a "win a culture victory peacefully while being an era behind in science" would be really difficult, maybe impossible given how tied tourism is to techs (maybe Brazil could do it with GAs?).

    Edit:
    Maybe I'd word the challenge as "Win diplo peacefully without ever being in the same era as the tech leader (ancient era exemption of course)". So the player would have to throttle their science to purposely stay behind. I think Austria, Germany, and Venice could do it. I almost accidentally did it as Venice in my last game- I was probably half an era back for much of the game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
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  14. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    tall order CV can indeed be really cool and a fun catch-up depending on the diplomatic landscape, avoiding a war can be better than any ideology tenet in higher difficulties. You had a tradition start, you have a powerful neighbour that you managed to placate by converting him, and that wide neighbour goes for order. You then go for tall order CV. You avoid making a powerful ideological enemy, you have cultural revolution, being tall is good for dictatorship of the proletariat, you secure open borders and trade routes, possibly world religion.

    That's also why I'm wary about the trend to make ideologies more clear-cut for an "optimal" use, because you reduce the chance of discovering new play styles (which is a big part of the fun). Wide culture should be easier in general but not at the expense of alternative play styles...
     
  15. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    about the importance of science for CV, I also think it is still very strong for close games. It would be interesting to test the opposite challenge: do players complete the other conditions (tourism, tenets) before reaching telecom, in a peaceful close game? Are there viable alternatives for CV to rushing the telecom buildings and internet?
     
  16. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    I dont think so. Even on Emperor, CV is fairly difficult for Arabia, which is one of the preeminent CV civilizations. The AI becomes very hostile as you approach CV, so it's almost better to pull a victory from behind.
     

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