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Science Victory Conditions

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Xyriach, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Xyriach

    Xyriach Chieftain

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    So I've just finished a Science Victory after a couple of Dominations, (one was supposed to be a science victory and got derailed by Sumeria getting too close for comfort on a religious victory) and while getting the science part done is fairly easy (as has been repeatedly threaded), the production of the 5 win conditions after that seem somewhat poorly weighted.

    Having had a failed attempt at this earlier (run through to understand how it works and then again as a serious attempt), by the time the initial satellite launch takes place, the number of technologies left to research means that you've already got the pre-requisite techs for Mars, so the Moon Landing becomes an arbitrary gap.

    Knowing you're going to cap the science victory, have 3 Space Centers in cities specialized for high production, the game at that point seems to basically turn into a "click to win" process. Your other cities spew out units to stave off or handle military threats, and you've got nothing to do really for the next 30 turns until you get the Moon Landing over with.

    In previous renditions, it was the building of a single ship which then went off to Alpha Centuri or where-ever, but it made more sense and felt more involved as an overall project. This seems to be a more obnoxious stepping stone process which really feels a lot less involved.

    From a historically representative perspective, I can see how it's a better fit, but does anyone else feel that the last 60-40 turns of a science game are pretty much just "turn on Netflix and click Next Turn"?
     
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  2. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Conquistador

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    Yes, I feel the same way.

    It doesn't help I also had to:

    -Manually research the same end-of-the line Tech and Civic every 6 turns. (please, just let it auto-select itself)
    -Manually re-assign my 6 spies to industrial zones and space centers every 5 turns. (please, just stay there. No, I don't want to give you new orders).
    -Manually re-assign my 15 trade routes with no option to repeat the current route.

    Last, but not least, I would've hoped for:

    -Each project to have a slightly different animation (all 5 are the same, exactly the same rocket launches from exactly the same cenital view)
    -AI leaders to somehow react to the completion of each project.

    All in all, not much of an improvement from Civ's V Science victory. Not bad, but nothing to call home about.

    The victory video is cool though, I'll give them that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
    Siptah, skyclad and Xyriach like this.
  3. HoboCop

    HoboCop Chieftain

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    Yes, this. I had the same experience. I built a lot of nukes, ruined the other continent in the meantime.
     
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  4. ScorpionTDC

    ScorpionTDC Chieftain

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    I actually disagree. I think maybe the moon landing could be tweaked in price, since it it's sort of an awkward placement, but as a whole? I like the heavy production cost. In CiV, it felt like a space victory really wasn't an achievement. Both it and diplomacy were victories that could easily be acquired at the last minute with no real prep work if you failed at domination/culture victories, whereas science in CiVI requires far more investment and planning in advance which makes it more fulfilling to me when I accomplish it.
     
  5. Cerilis

    Cerilis Stormrider

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    2 words: Great Engineers.

    I did a science victory and although I thought it would still take like 60 turns when i was done with the spaceport (and only techs for moon landing at best) it took only like the half because my other cities got invested in spawning great engineers.
    I think when i won I only had done 2 future techs at best (though i reached the end of culture a bit earlier, probably invested too much there considering i was going science). I'm sure I would have reached it earlier if i had investend in scientists and engineers earlier instead of some other things i was still trying out. :p
     
  6. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    it's best to have one city make everything than have every single other city set to industry research if you have an industrial district to make great engineers appear. that's how i always do it. and yes it sucks having to set each city back to research every few turns...
     
  7. oklibrarian

    oklibrarian Chieftain

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    Just finished my first science victory last night (also my first pacifist game). Possibly one of the most awesome ecience maps I've played in any iteration of civ. Inland sea map, spawned with a major mountain range separating me from half the AIs and a bunch of rivers separating me from the others (who were also further away). The map screamed hermit mode and so I went with it. Once I turtled up with my half-dozen cities (7 tiles apart save for some minor shifts to grab this or that tile), It was a relatively smooth ride, and I got up to an early enough tech lead that the AI didn't really pester me much save grumpy denouncements and some minor spying that I handled with policy changes and telling the AI off via the diplomacy screen (two civs out of three who spied kept their promise). they spent most of the game warring and trying to convert each other religiously (which could have been a threat but wasn't--more later). Some of this may be that I'm ready to go up a difficulty level, but the last hundred turns were pretty much an exercise in hitting the next turn button and massaging trade routes & spies. My thoughts:

    1. the science victory isn't: A science victory isn't about science so much as it is about production: I was mostly fine on science because I've learned good habits from previous civs--by the time I had my first spaceport (of two) built I had moon landing researched and the first mars part less than 10 turns from being researched. That said, part two took a while because I'd done quite a few tech tree slingshots , so between that and the fact I wasn't allowed to start building the moon mission till after the satellite launched there were only about 30 turns where both spaceports were actually going simultaneously (though that was partially because I got a few well-timed GEs and GSs with space race production boosts). I had my capital and my highest production city building parts, and used trade routes to feed them more hammers (er. cogs). After science and production districts were finished and I mollified a few low housing cities with neighborhoods, I started switching cities over to the production project (logistics?) Soon after I started getting all the Great People mentioned above and really turned into overdrive. the last Mars Part took just under 20 turns if memory serves. I had room for two more cities and if I had it to do over again I'd probably have built them--I just had a minor cash crunch in the midgame which put a third wave of expansion on hold, and once I got the balance sheet sorted out I was just about to start building spaceports and I decided not to mess with it.

    2. The importance of culture: I could have ended the game WAY sooner (50 turns, maybe more) if I had focused more on culture. I spent very little energy on it since I didn't want to accidentally win the culture game like I did the first time I tried for science, and I was focusing on science and production anyway. HOWEVER, it felt like I was waiting an eternity for the third line government to go online, because I needed the extra hammers from the communism boost (and then space race) to make that final push. Still figuring out the culture tree, and how to best balance culture generation when shooting for other victory conditions. I don't seem to be alone with that though, so yay. :)

    3: Defensive religion (AKA, I got lucky): I realized about halfway through building the spaceport that if one civ ever got a decisive religious lead and set their sights on me, I was probably screwed. I had a pantheon, but only like one holy site and I didn't bother trying for a religion. fortunately, nobody got the upper hand on the other side of the mountains, and I never saw so much as a missionary. That said, I got lucky, and I don't like being lucky. Next time I do an insular science turtle I'll go ahead and take the turns early to set up a religion. I won't necessarily do much with it, but a few holy sites churning faith and ready to spawn a fleet of apostles and inquisitors if needed would have been a better idea.

    All in all--the endgame of a science victory is a little dull, but that's mostly when compared to domination and religion (which is more or less domination, but with sillier animations). Civ 6's was no worse than previous, maybe a little better in some ways. But at the end of the day it's an exercise in improving your city management and research chops, and that's never going to be as flashy as flinging nukes around.

    PS-- all that said, would it have killed them to make a few more space launch videos? You could just change the last couple seconds to show a different piece floating in orbit, the moon landing, etc. It was a bit anticlimactic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  8. leonvr

    leonvr Chieftain

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    It's even worse on marathon, and I got a 9000 cog Engineer and a plus 100% production engineer. And yea I had to go destroy all my beaches etc to prevent a culture win. I won't be going for this victory on marathon again, it is way to tedious!!!
     
  9. Samdari

    Samdari Chieftain

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    I definitely agree. Science should be the most important aspect of a science victory. Under current conditions, its more of a production victory.
     
  10. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    it was like that in civ V too though. get the research than spam production to build the units. only difference is this time you don't have to truck the parts to the build site once they are built.
     
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  11. oklibrarian

    oklibrarian Chieftain

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    Now that change I love. That trucking nonsense was stupid.
     
  12. Cerilis

    Cerilis Stormrider

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    Mhrm... then maybe they can have a city's science output contribute to the production of the parts? :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
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  13. oklibrarian

    oklibrarian Chieftain

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    Of course, we should keep in mind that science victories IRL are pretty insanely dependent on production too, which is why we as a society blow our hammers on social media rather than the space program.
     
  14. Pennraugion

    Pennraugion Chieftain

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    To win the Space Race is pretty easy.
    Cerilis postet it already. One of the key are the Great Personalities. (Ingenieer and Scientist)
    They give you a huge boost in production.

    Not quite enough of course, but they will help you a lot.

    The most important thing is to spam the map with your cities founded as nearby as possible.


    Or you can try this little "challenge"
    The Return of Nibiru - A Hall of Fame Discussion here (civfanatics)
     
  15. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    Great people are key to avoiding the "next turn" science victory.

    Goddard (Engineer): +20% to all space projects
    Korolev (Engineer): +1500 production to space projects (rush 1/2)
    Von Braun (Engineer) +3000 production to space projects (rush one fully)
    Sagan (Scientist) +3000 production to space projects (rush one fully)
    Kwolek (Scientist) +100% production to all space projects
     
  16. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    I won my first SV last night (deity, t282) and used one city for space production I had the great engineer and great scientist that gives hammers and burned them to instantly make the last 2 pieces. My constraint was the tech because I focused commerce and industry before campus districts in each of my 6 cities.
     

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