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Science Victory Guide (Any Difficulty)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fish Man, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Assuming you have taken both Secularism (+2 science for each specialist) and Free Thought (extra university science and +1 science per trading post), you want to work every specialist slot (even if it will stagnate your cities) and every trading post (even better, convert farms to trading posts in advance of filling your labs) and set each city's production to research -- basically squeeze out every beaker you can find. Wait 8 turns and start your bulb-fest.
     
  2. corranhorn01

    corranhorn01 Chieftain

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    Well, you certainly beat me. I even played it again and went Freedom, cut off about 10 turns off my Order time, but my cities were worse (about T295). Mind you, that was with hard building workers :).

    You nearly got my cities spot on. Cap and Oll are in the same spots. I had Tiw where the antiquity site is below that city and my 4th city followed the river system (also where the antiquity site is).

    Your game played so differently to mine. In both my attempts, Ghandi got Petra ~T75-80, Rome was wonderwhoring and he also killed Egypt about T100. By the end of both games, it was only myself, Rome and Greece left - when I went Order, Rome went Auto and Greece went Freedom and when I went Freedom, the other 2 went Auto.
     
  3. unrendered

    unrendered Chieftain

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    I noticed that in the BO, library is before caravan. I don't know at what difficulty this is aimed for, but on Deity you should build caravan before library as it yields more beakers if connecting to an AI.
     
  4. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    Worker stealing is the key for faster turn win. In this game 2 workers stolen would have saved you easily 20 turns. Not only you take them off your production queue at a time where there is a ton of stuff to build, but the earlier improvements snowball into faster growth. And last but not least, it messes with the AI, and that was why I was able to build Petra. Petra was very important for me in this game, more for the extra trade route and free caravan than the production and growth boost, as my desert was poorish in hills and no river. The reason I picked Gandhi although he was likely to DoF me and the terrain was poor for worker stealing, was that he was the AI most likely to forward settle me on or close to the desert in front of my cap and second city, and while the AI in deity is very likely to build Petra even without desert, in Immortal it feel as if they do not prioritize it if they have no desert.

    In my game, Rome did fight Egypt and took at least a city and crippled Egypt. But Gandhi expanded in the other direction because I spent 20 looong turns messing with it, at the beginning with a warrior and scout and after with just the scout. The price that I paid is no early DoF and I was very soon the common enemy, due to the DoWs to Gandhi and Hanoi, and also because I aggressively pursued wonders and CS quests. I tried to rectify this but nobody was taking bribes. Some more RAs would have really helped, but no, only Gandhi.

    The optimal play would have been to steal 4 workers between the CS and Gandhi, but one did not produce and the other build units like mad and I was not good enough to steal in spite of that. I did cripple Gandhi's BO though.:D

    The other important thing I was not good enough to do in my game was to play with diplo to have one universally hated opponent in the game, ideally Rome as it was wonder whoring.

    I had a nervous 20 turns or so close to the end as Rome was running away in culture and tourism, and forcing me into unhappiness, but I won before that was an issue. Everybody took order but Gandhi, and one poor AI that took autocracy.

    Thanks again, it was a fun map.
     
  5. rover6695

    rover6695 Prince

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    Alright....a few more questions:

    1) Science specialists: Should every slot a specialist in a science building as soon as the building is finished?

    2) Science buildings: aside from library and university, should one beeline to build Public Schools and Research labs in all cities?

    3). Does this guide still apply well if you want to have 5-6 cities either self setteled or Annexed?
     
  6. 59saintdane

    59saintdane Warlord

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    1) Yes.
    2) Yes.
    3) Probably.
     
  7. GemCollecter

    GemCollecter Chieftain

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    Hi guys! Ive been wondering, whats the optimal tech order for this win I get confused in midgame and start taking junk. Please can somebody post a link or the optimal order? :)
     
  8. Sessy

    Sessy Prince

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    luxury techs -> philosophy -> civil service -> education -> metal casting -> architecture -> scientific theory -> (oxford)radio -> plastics -> satellites -> everything else to build spaceship parts.

    This only works if you're not getting attacked and feel safe.

    Also I really don't like the OPs choice of using oxford on plastics, I feel it's much better to get super early modern for freedom. I've done it on T161 with babylon before.
     
  9. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    There is no optimal tech order for all maps. It changes with map. If you lack food and have lots of plantations and non riverside farm you want top detour to fertilizer after r-labs etc
     
  10. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    Mostly agree, but EDU -->metal casting I don't do. The beeline after Edu is situational, but basically you want to enter renaissance and get Secularism asap after that, so you will have timed your policies to do that optimally. In the game that we discussed just above, with 3 observatories, ideally it would be Edu-->Astronomy, with Oracle policy and naturally obtained policy happening right after you finish Astronomy. If for whatever reason you need renaissance earlier, then Edu-->Acoustics. After that, it is a beeline to Scientific Theory, the route I take is the one that will give me the trade routes as soon as possible. Some intelligent timing for Printing Press is recommended, depending on the difficulty level.

    Beeline after ST is per Sessy's post. Oxford Radio, I do that most of the time, if I don't is because my science is great and I can burn a GS for it and getting it with the burn, I agree with Sessy that Ideology as soon as possible is essential, specially in the higher levels. In that particular case I will use Oxford for nanotech or something like that. But frankly, Oxford Radio is what makes sense and easier to play.
     
  11. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    I believe the beelines after Edu described above are probably good for 95 percent of the maps. Within the beelines, yes you can detour situationally for a particular tech for 4-5 turns but no more than that and only once. Before Edu, in the higher levels, especially Deity, it often makes sense to make a couple of detours to trade route techs, this assumes you can protect the trade routes, nothing more frustrating than building a caravan or cargo and see it pillaged by an AI or barbarians. Money is also important while making the beeline decision, if you have gold enough to rush buy the science building for the tech you are beelining, be it Unis, Schools or Labs, then NO detours.
     
  12. Cptobvious

    Cptobvious Chieftain

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    I followed the tradition opener in this game and somehow I am WAY behind on everything...not sure how this happened, it's on Emperor. I'm rusty and haven't played in months so must've messed something up. Is there any hope for me at this point for science or should I just start again? Currently last in science, but maybe I can catch up? :(

    Spoiler :
     
  13. DouLou

    DouLou Chieftain

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    Quick question, why do you put NC/Oracle as if you will be swapping them around? What are the benefits of swapping production/picking one over the other?

    Also if you're on a low enough difficulty to get GL would you skip Library in Capital?
     
  14. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    Sometimes if you have not timed your libreries right you start Oracle, as soon as all your libraries are up, you do NC and then finish Oracle. EDIT: Deity level, and assumes this is happening before t80.

    If you can get GL don't build that Library. On Emperor and below, it is possible to get the GL.
     
  15. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    Of course you can catch up (go to demographics and if you are not more than 10% behind the leader you are fine) and will catch up in about 25 turns, once you reach Edu and then Astronomy and build your Unis and Observatories. But frankly, your cities are too far apart and do not make a lot of sense, I have the feeling they maybe even out of caravan range. But even considering that, you are really behind though, and considering how late you planted expos 3-4 your cap is very small. If you want drop me the save and I will have a look see what's happened. Are you spamming wonders? Your fpt is really high.
     
  16. DouLou

    DouLou Chieftain

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    Thanks, I'm new to Civ 5 (played Civ 4 for a few months) but managed to get a t311 victory (3 cities) on Prince on my second full game thanks to this guide! (messed around t0-100 a few times to get a feel for the start). Just a great topic/guide.

    I've been attempting 4 cities and found the main issue is Happiness becomes an issue fast... am I right in assuming without 4 luxes it's just not feasible/reliable to go 4 civs?

    Also in regards to 3 cities vs 4 cities.... I played 2 full games on Prince with 3 cities and got t311 and t317 SV... I would hit the first and second beaker milestone (70 and 307), but then I would always miss the third beaker milestone (530~), and then by endgame was could barely break 1000. Obviously I realize I did a lot wrong that made my victory slower, but in regards to beakers is this an issue with my growth or do you typically start to fall off beaker wise towards the end when you go 3 cities as opposed to 4?

    Basically the jist of my question is that is 4 cities necessary for those super low SV time (~t250) or is it still doable with 3 cities?
     
  17. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    You can do around 250 even with OCC, but I guess your question is what is generally better. 4 cities are usually better and at prince you should not have problems planting them. There are many considerations, but the main ones in my opinion are the trade routes and GS generation. You can probabñy get one more GS with 4 cities vs. 3 and you can send three food trade routes to the cap, which makes a hell of a difference in beakers (growth=science). For a 250 finish your science should be at around 1200-1300 beakers when you start bulbing, which requires cap at 30-35 and expos at 20-25 (these are averages, the sizes will depend on the dirt). To ensure that your expos are "profitable" science wise, each needs to produce more than 5 percent of your total science. And gold wise you are generally significantly better off with 4.

    At higher levels, it is not as easy to find good spots to plant 4 good cities, so a lot of people sometimes play 3 cities tradition. I also find 5 cities very powerful but it is a lot more difficult to play and it is unusual to find great spots for that many cities at higher levels. The 5th spot needs to be truly spectacular to catch up with the rest.

    As for happiness, yes that is the main challenge at higher levels. You will not be able to produce enough happiness yourself before Ideology to sustain the fast growth needed to produce a 250 SV (well maybe just barely at prince), so your main source of happiness should be the CS alliances, so pay attention to the CS mini-game, do quests, especially in the fist 100 turns build some archers so you can kill those barb camps, steal workers and so on. This will be easier if your exploring is efficient.

    EDIT: you should be proud though, 311 SV win at prince when you are just starting is a great result.
     
  18. DouLou

    DouLou Chieftain

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    Thanks a lot for the detailed answer. That's answered everything and more!

    Regarding this line "To ensure that your expos are "profitable" science wise, each needs to produce more than 5 percent of your total science."

    Do you mean more than 5% of my current beaker generation? Because by looking at my cities in a game I'm currently playing my Cap is producing 150, and expos 50 and 40. So even my lowest one is ~15% of my total (profitable) or am I misunderstanding?

    Yeah I am proud of it :) My first game was a t410 victory before I started reading up lol... This forum and guide in particular has helped a great deal!
     
  19. Bleidraner

    Bleidraner King

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    Yes more than 5% current beaker generation.
     
  20. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    That's actually not entirely exact. The increase is 5% of the base cost.

    So if the base cost is C and you make N cities (after capital) the tech costs (1+0.05*N)C.

    Therefore going from N to N+1 you go from (1+0.05N)C to (1+0.05(N+1))C. Therefore if you look right now at your beaker generation B you need the new city to generate ((1+0.05(N+1))/(1+0.05N)-1) * B. The interesting thing is this quantity converges to 0.

    Example: You have 3 cities (+capital). And generate 300bpt. You need the 4th to generate (1.20/1.15-1)*300=13 (and not 15).

    Note that this is based on your previous BPT. If you want to know for your current BPT you have to divide your current BPT by the quantity (1+0.05(N+1))/(1+0.05N) to discount your BPT. This represents the bpt without the increase. If your city makes at least the difference then it is pulling its weight.

    Example: You want to know if the 4th city (after capital) pulls its weight with 16bpt while you're making 350bpt.
    350/((1+0.05(N+1))/(1+0.05N)) = 335.41
    350-335.41=14.58
    16>14.58 The city pulls its weight.
     

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