Science victory help

[Bamboocha]

I'm planning to go for a science victory in my next game (emperor or immortal difficulty, large map, all settings standard, continents). I don't know what leader I'll pick, but presumably Washington.

The standard stratagy for a science victory is rushing the Great Library, going to education as straight as possible for the Hagia Sophia, and use the free great person for an engineer for the Porcelain tower, and then rush observatory ASAP so you can unlock astrology, opening up the rationalism SP tree.

While this strategy seems pretty good, it does leave two questions unawnsered:
1. While you're rushing all those knowledge related techs, you still have no other military troops than warriors and scouts available. At about this period in the game, the AI probably has archers and perhaps a handful of swordsmen or horsemen (I've never seen them construct catapults). This leaves you very vulnerable, how should one remedy this?

2. How many cities should one build for a science victory? In other words, should one go "tall" or "wide"? A question that's closely related to this is wether your starting policy should be tradition or liberty.

 

[Rpger29]

I think the idea is to hook up 2 luxuries, trading away each as soon as possible. You need to try to sell these while everyone is still "friendly" to maximize the tradeoff you're making.

I then use those to buy just enough troops to discourage DoW's from all by my nearest neighbor. Let him DoW if he wants - I'll win a defensive war within sight of my capitol, then press the advantage for a peace settlement.

If all your production is going into wonders and buildings, then gold has to be the source of your troops.

How many cities? Situational. Tall if that is more geared toward your civ, or you have limited sites for expansion. Wide if you have a lot of jungle tiles to take advantage of universities. I think most people here prefer tall in most situations, especially at the higher difficulties. It's certainly easier to defend 4 cities than 6. Might lead to a more peaceful game too.

 

[Deau]

1. Because if you don't, HS and PT will be built before you get there (in fact this really only applies to deity. The step between immortal and deity was further increased in last patch and you have far more room to play on immortal games using deity based openers)

On the other hand, you should not need more than a few archers and hills-settled cities to defend against the first few AI rushes. Note that it is suggested to delay cities 3-5 (aka any hard built settlers) in order to reduce the enemy agression all the way to PT. Once PT is reached you should have np catching up in other techs really quickly.

Note that rushing GL involves teching mining right after writing to chop a forest or two. If you have very agressive neighbors, consider going further to get walls (either save 400g in case of a rush purchase or hard build if you know for sure you'll be rushed)

2. Standard is 3-5. With the changes to SPs and happiness in last patch though, this is far less a burden. You can fairly easy do it with just 2 cities if you have enough income for RA spam but you can also REX after PT (for so long as you can defend it all). I had 13 cities winning my last deity science earlier. 8 hard built after PT. I played it through a tradition opener though for the Oligarchy defense in the early game.

 

[Bamboocha]

So the best defensive tactic for a science victory is just building all of your cities on hills (if possible), getting oligarchy and building an archer in every city, right?

 

[Cheeseisgood]

Just work on the principle that you need to have enough military to stop yourself being an easy target. If you're weak in terms of number of troops, the AI will gang up on you and make your life a pain, so either have enough troops to deter them or enough money to raise an army from nothing should they attack.

While bulbing all that, you should be able to get yourself Pikemen, which would be worth building if your enemy has horsemen.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

Something to consider;

Playing as Washington means your land units have greater sight range. While this can help you see rushes early... it also helps tremendously when hunting down ancient ruins. If you're lucky you may nab a free tech or two, one of which may be bronzeworking or archery.

 

[Bamboocha]

Just work on the principle that you need to have enough military to stop yourself being an easy target. If you're weak in terms of number of troops, the AI will gang up on you and make your life a pain, so either have enough troops to deter them or enough money to raise an army from nothing should they attack.

While bulbing all that, you should be able to get yourself Pikemen, which would be worth building if your enemy has horsemen.

Sounds fair enough, but what if the AI starts rushing me with (long)swordsmen, which isn't too uncommon on Emperor IIRC?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Sounds fair enough, but what if the AI starts rushing me with (long)swordsmen, which isn't too uncommon on Emperor IIRC?

Same thing. AI is unbelievably horrible at tactics. Minimal number of troops will be enough. Keep an archer/crosbow per city and make sure you have an efficient road network so your cities can 'share' them if necessary. A horse or two will also come in handy for finishing off wounded units and preventing instant heal.
However, if you have an aggressive neighbor (the list is too long for me to give names ) or just one you're worried about try to bribe someone to DoW him first or bribe him to DoW others.

 

[m0bstar]

keep an eye on your demographics and dont fall to far behind on soldiers

 

[Silverfuturist]

Here is a more fun Space Victory I have used:

1. Ignore the Great Library
2. Tech right to Iron
3. Build Warriors after the initial scout/monument/whaterver on the way to iron
4. Get Iron, upgrade warriors to swords and start puppeting
5. After Iron, go the usual tech paths.
6. After a certain point you may have to consolidate and stop warring
7. The puppet empire will provide lots of gold, science and culture.
8. get 8-9 great scientists using the right wonders/policies/buildings
9. Oxford, Rationalism, Liberty finisher provide 4 more great scientists.

 

[Buccaneer]

Thanks for the good information, as I'm about to try my first science-centric game. I got cultural, domination and diplomacy pretty much nailed, so now on to learning something new. I've usually done very well on techs in all of my games but never quite enough to try to go for a space win. If I recall on the end game, it's a matter of getting a good enough tech lead (i.e., way first to Apollo) to buy the time you need to build the parts.

 

[Tabarnak]

Here is a more fun Space Victory I have used:

1. Ignore the Great Library
2. Tech right to Iron
3. Build Warriors after the initial scout/monument/whaterver on the way to iron
4. Get Iron, upgrade warriors to swords and start puppeting
5. After Iron, go the usual tech paths.
6. After a certain point you may have to consolidate and stop warring
7. The puppet empire will provide lots of gold, science and culture.
8. get 8-9 great scientists using the right wonders/policies/buildings
9. Oxford, Rationalism, Liberty finisher provide 4 more great scientists.

For sure it's fun, but not optimal to get the fastest time. But hey, OP didn't ask how to do this fastest possible so it's a valid strategy.

 

[Bamboocha]

Here is a more fun Space Victory I have used:

1. Ignore the Great Library
2. Tech right to Iron
3. Build Warriors after the initial scout/monument/whaterver on the way to iron
4. Get Iron, upgrade warriors to swords and start puppeting
5. After Iron, go the usual tech paths.
6. After a certain point you may have to consolidate and stop warring
7. The puppet empire will provide lots of gold, science and culture.
8. get 8-9 great scientists using the right wonders/policies/buildings
9. Oxford, Rationalism, Liberty finisher provide 4 more great scientists.

Does this also work with horseback riding instead of ironworking?
If so, which one of the two is better for a science victory? (assuming I don't conquer too much and mostly use my armies defensively)

 

[wcbarney]

I'm planning to go for a science victory in my next game (emperor or immortal difficulty, large map, all settings standard, continents). I don't know what leader I'll pick, but presumably Washington. ...

I didn't see where anyone else has mentioned this, so I will. Washington is my favorite civ, mainly 'cause I love the B-17 which is born with lots of promotions. But if you're just starting out from scratch trying for a science win, then Korea and Babylon are much better choices. I personally think that Korea is by far the best science civ in the game, with Babylon a close second.

Another thing: A science win is fairly easy on emperor, but pretty difficult on immortal; so I advise you to try being Korea on standard/standard emperor & see how that goes before you move up to immortal.

 

[basta]

Silverfuturist's post is pretty much the fallback scenario if you don't get the GL and get 1 or 2 early DoWs--it does work but it's not blazing fast, and actually it is pretty fun to go warmonger/revenge for a while.

You pretty much need iron to make this work, horses are too weak--mop-up and defensive units essentially. Or have some really promoted crossbows and hustle them to full advantage, but that's much tougher.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Does this also work with horseback riding instead of ironworking?
If so, which one of the two is better for a science victory? (assuming I don't conquer too much and mostly use my armies defensively)

Horsemen have penatly vs cities and are a disaster vs spears/pikes, so I don't go the horse route. Warriors-upgrade-to-swords is a lot faster than building horses.

 

[Silverfuturist]

For sure it's fun, but not optimal to get the fastest time. But hey, OP didn't ask how to do this fastest possible so it's a valid strategy.

Yes, fastest possible wasn't requested, but this method gives a much higher "score." at the end. And that "score" means... not much.

 

[Noatz]

I would probably try Babylon for your first higher difficulty science rush, as much for the ease of turtling up while you rush for education as the UA, though this is obviously an excellent bonus with the early academy and and GS spam.

 

[Bamboocha]

I didn't see where anyone else has mentioned this, so I will. Washington is my favorite civ, mainly 'cause I love the B-17 which is born with lots of promotions. But if you're just starting out from scratch trying for a science win, then Korea and Babylon are much better choices. I personally think that Korea is by far the best science civ in the game, with Babylon a close second.

Another thing: A science win is fairly easy on emperor, but pretty difficult on immortal; so I advise you to try being Korea on standard/standard emperor & see how that goes before you move up to immortal.

Hmm, as far as I've seen Washington gets a lot of flak for having a near-useless UA and the B-17 comes in too late to be relevant. I used to be sceptic about this but after playing a Rome domination victory I discovered that, even if you use a continents map, the industrial era is the last era in which warfare is still anything more than mopping up the remainders.

Also, I have no DLC's (save for the free monghol one) so I can't play as Korea or Babylon. (That's what I hate about DLC civs, they're far more powerful than the free civs).

 

[Buccaneer]

FWIW, I'm in an interesting science game as Babylon. I am on a small sized continent all to myself connected to a mainland by a narrow ismuth completely blocked by 3 mountains. Never had an island/continent to myself before and don't know how this plays it with Babylonian science. So far I got a good lead on techs, got GL/NC but had to get Optics so I could embark. Gold is a problem, as well as stopping Wonders and buildings long enough so I can get settlers and a few defensive units out.