Science Victory in 128 Turns (VIDEO) - Strategy and Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by civtrader6, Jan 6, 2018.

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1. tigersdsChieftain

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@civtrader6 Just wanted to chime in to say thank you for uploading this! All your writeups have been immensely helpful, but this has been even more so. There is such a lack of actually good players on YouTube, so it's great to see how a good player actually plays. And your commentary is great! It's so good that I'm honestly surprised that you haven't done this before.

2. Boyan_SunChieftain

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This video is really great, the explanation is very professional and clear, absolutely not like some new user of recording videos (yes I means that R*-star). Really looking forward to Part 2, and very sorry for the GFW, it is a shame of China. (by the way, I like "the BEST thing to do DEFINETLY is to…" )

According what he posted here: “For Aztec and Australia you don't need gold/GS point at all, just find 5 places with ~10 chops, and build(chop) a spaceport and chop a space project there. Aztec in fact needs 7, while Australia needs 8.(with +40% von neumann+mausoleum, if not then the number becomes 9, which is still reasonable) My experience is that places with 10 chops(tree+1.25*stone+1.25*deer+0.5*rainforest) are not very difficult to find. “

Yes, he was talking about that 100% boost, science victory with neither engineers nor scientists, just chopping. Let’s calculate: with this boost, Australia’s spaceport only need 1800/2 = 900(prod) = 4.5(trees), and Mars project only need 1800/2=900(prod) = 4.5(tree), totally 9 trees, or 1800/2/1.4 = 643(prod) = 3.2(tree), totally 8 trees for you have the exact engineer. For Aztec, 5 workers for a spaceport, 1800(prod) = 9(tree), or 1800/1.4 = 1286(prod) = 6.5(tree), totally 7 trees for you have the exact engineer to finish the Mars project. So see? For SV you only need to find 5 cities with ~10 trees, no engineers or scientists. Perfect!

Stop daydreaming and be realistic! First of all, how many workers need to be built/captured, then be deployed, for this great plan? (It is only 3~4 needed for Big-Ben GP rush). Secondly, it sounds like he can chop 5 space projects at the same time, which was in parallel, to save turns. But in fact, we must first launch the satellite, then the moon landing, finally Mars projects (yes, these 3 Mars projects can be in parallel). OK it doesn’t matter, he can also chop them out one by one in 1 turn, or very detailed pipeline control, but finally, Australia’s 100% prod boost is applied on city yields only, which means the chopping prod cannot be doubled, one who ever chopped/harvested using Australia won’t make this mistake. It still needs at least 9 trees for each Mars project without GPs.
Whatever, it may be good in some conditions, but only for Aztec, whose spaceport means 1 worker. Some very early Aztec SV game reports used 2 or 3 spaceports to build projects in parallel, before the Big-ben rush was founded.

Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 7:10 AM
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3. VictoriaReginaSupporter

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You make some great points... especially the 100% chop for OZ not working. Interesting I did not know about that

I chopped in 5 projects with the Aztecs in a GTOM and it worked well so I played a few more games. (mainly with England because I like to measure against the same useless civ)

So I have found that saving up for Goddard with +20% projects is OK as he is not that expensive being a modern GE
The +30% project for Democracy is great
Hong Kong of lucky enough gives 20% projects

That gives a 70% chop benefit which is not bad. Having played it out I agree its situational and tricky and does not really work for anyone but the Aztecs unless there is a lot of woods.

In rise and fall the new interesting governors for this

Magnus the Steward would give +100% chop to one city.
Pingala the educator may give 30% to projects in the city

I think the 4-5 city strategy is worth knowing, that moon landing culture is worth getting earlier if possible. But its not going to be a 'best' strategy.

4. Boyan_SunChieftain

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Democracy cannot +30% for space projects' production I remember?
Democracy only *1.3 yields of the GPP and that certain project ( for campus it converts 15%*1.3 prod to science, for CH it converts 30%*1.3 prod to gold, etc ), On the other hand, Hong Kong, Goddard, and other 2 +100% Great People for space, they speed up production, not yield.

Whatever, it's gone in R&F

5. CobrettiChieftain

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Deep respect for you guys. The way you dissected this game is a thing of beauty. At the same rate, I think the dev's should improve its mechanics a bit.
Let's face it: I doubt that it was their intention to allow players to place (but not build) districts to circumvent the higher costs later on, or to get production overflow with bonuses from chops, even if the excess production goes to something that wouldn't get the bonus originally (like the monarchy + limes + chop combo trick).

6. VictoriaReginaSupporter

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That explains some chopping variation, it’s only 30% on yields, cheers

R&F will make things more fun, if they did not stop changing things you would get bored!

7. Boyan_SunChieftain

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There are actually two kinds of percentage bonuses in Civilization, some players who have played Civ4 or Civ5 would know that.

One is added to the city yields, such likes factories, markets and universities in Civ4 & Civ5, they will be often displayed in the city panel (+xx%). In Civ6, Ruhr (+20% prod), Oxford (+20% sci), colony taxes (+25% gold), and the amenity bonus (+5%/+10% sci&cul&prod&gold&faith for +1/+3 amenity) are this kind. Australia’s 100% prod boost is this kind, too, you will see it displayed in the city panel when war begins. ( Civ6 has a very different place compared to Civ4 and Civ5, which is that most buildings cancel this percentage bonus, so no advantage for concentration of population in large cities. That may be a reason why cities’ efficient pop is 6~10, and more densely small cities will give you advantage )

The other one is to accelerate the production of a specific project, such likes the +100% wall prod of Qin in Civ4, +50% settler prod collective rule in Civ5, they won’t display on the city panel. In Civ6, all the military +xx% prod policies, 100% prod to theater & holy site of Japan, are this kind. The chop/harvest overflow trick can be, and only can be implemented with this kind of percentage bonus.

The same percentage bonuses are additive, but the 2 different kind of bonuses are to multiply. It is easy to understand, for the first one is actually affect city’s final yield. Then the city final yield will add any chop/harvest outputs, multiply the specific modifier (the second kind), that is the actual production.

Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 11:08 AM
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8. jacktanneryChieftain

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Excellent video. I'm really looking forward to part 2.

9. linakerChieftain

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Perhaps it's a good thing you are not a You Tuber. I've found videos there difficult to follow. While I'm trying to work out what just happened, I've missed the next action. I thought this video was clear with very good explanations. I learned from it.

Sorry if I've missed this, but are you playing with a mod or a DLC version. The game interface is different to mine - specifically when viewing the leader diplomacy screens and I would love to have all those options on the map pin screen in my game. (District and wonder indicators).

10. Lily_LancerChieftain

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For workers there won't be any problem. Just leave every worker(start from mid-game) with the last charge to stop working and move to get prepared on his potential chop place. In a game we usually build around 80 builders (for this I checked some of my SV saves, the final builder cost is all around 350~400, which indicates a number of 70~90 builders), so having 50 simultaneously shall be easy, so your point of "sequential" makes no sense in fact, everything is still built in one turn. That's not "daydream" I suppose. In fact, since there are a lot of time between Rocketry and final finish, you even don't need to save that much 1-charge builders to finish everything together.

I admit that I haven't tried the Australian SV, but I'll try it and test it to see whether the +100% works or not. This may be a point, if what you said being correct, I'll thank you for this. I think we both agree Aztec undoubtedly satisfy this strategy.

For "Aztec using 2~3 spaceports to parallel", that is certainly just an ancient strategy and have no relation to this thread. In this thread we are talking about finishing everything in <5 turns, so that's certainly unrelated.

Last edited: Jan 12, 2018 at 11:12 PM
11. Boyan_SunChieftain

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That is what I said “to be deployed”, and it is a basic operation for building Aztec spaceport, or launching rockets in 1 turn, well-known, being used by almost every SV game report and video in China. However, more workers, more planning. In a Big-Ben rush it only needs ~5 workers to be deployed, but it requires almost ~40 workers to chop almost at the same time in very few turns (or a little bit less workers by that I said “pipeline control”) under this strategy. It is amazing that someone can do such a thing (the live effect must be very wonderful). Really looking forward to your live streaming, or upload a video under this strategy, as there is no GFW in your country, and we will be very grateful for it.

As for Australia, even if it was not a science victory, you had not chopped or harvested to speed up other victories with Australia? I mean, you know, before you say some idea, maybe you'd better try it yourself when conditions met? That 100% boost is that yield kind, I’m quite sure it is displayed on the city panel, and it won't make chopping gained more prod. Democracy 30% is that yield kind too. I would suggest that you can show it to the audiences when you record that video.

Thanks!

12. Livio CocconcelliChieftain

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From my test, the +30% democracy bonus is applied to chops. I've just chopped a jungle froma 100 production base, and i got 156 production:
+30% Democracy
+20% Hong Kong Projects Bonus
-5% Happines
====
156 Production. So if i'm not missing another 30% hidden bonus, democracy is ok for space project and chop.

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13. Livio CocconcelliChieftain

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@civtrader6 : thank you so much for this video and your guide on Science Victory.
It changed completely my approach to the game. After reading your T140 guide, I've tried myself without any real success and after a lot of tries and retry I was able to win a T195 SV on Immortal.
After this video, i've tried again on various maps, and at the end, using the GotM map and copying a lot of your choice, I've just finished a T149 SV on this map. It's a great accomplishment for me!

But I made a lot of mistakes mid-late game (the part you have not covered yet in your video guide ), so I'm confident I can make much better.

My biggest mistakes (i belive):

- I completely failed the Big Ben gold rush. In this map, there are no merchant city-states near, so I was not able to find them until late and they were very distant from my city. So no merchant to them (very far, and spending 30 tourn to make a trading post was too late ), and very very late envoys. So my 16 trade routes (at the end of the game) were not enough and when I finished Big Ben I only had 7-8K. So i was not able to buy any GP useful for the projects. At the end of the game i got 12 GS, but no one really useful for fast victory.

- I failed on chopping the projects too. I was confident to get some bonus from the Greap Scientists, and so I made 3 city (instead of 5) with spaceports. Without scientist, I was able to chop only 4 projects, and had to hard build the last on my capital (16 turn lost at miminum)

- I completely miss Stoccolma until the very end... so probably my science and GP rush could be faster. And in turn 106-116 I went to war with France: 4 city but 10 turns without the 15% bonus of Ginevra: not worth it at the end.

- Most important: Having lost goddess of the Harvest, I tried God of Forge instead of +1 GP. IT helped me for the military campaign against Rome, but i got very few GP in the beginning-mid game, and I was lacking faith to buy any GS. I believe this is the reason I was not able to get the usefuls one at the end.

So thank you again, and I really like to see the second part of the video.
I will try this map again to see If I can go below the 130T.

14. Lily_LancerChieftain

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I don't know why you mentioned "video" that much times. It seems that saves and game logs are actually more believable.

Since videos are good for commercial use, and you want me to upload those videos on Youtube, which is blocked by GFW so that other Chinese cannot find the origin source, I know Chinese video makers are good at copying and replicating without citation, so maybe you want to make some use of these videos in China?

@civtrader6 maybe you shall also keep in mind of your right of videos. They are the best videos on youtube, which is sure to encourage copies, or, more badly, maybe there'll be someone just translated and claim their credit
(like what may happened in the district discount mechanism)

Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 2:10 PM
15. The PilgrimChieftain

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I know. That was a specific tile he placed a district on in a newly founded city (1 pop) and there were workers within 1-2 turns distance. I guess the gain from the food wasn't that meaningful then. I need to play more to get a feel for these things.

Yes, dynamic builders (and settlers) costs is something I can't get used to. Hate this mechanic. I realize it's necessary to somewhat slow down ICS, but I still hate it.

I meant mostly production. Pastures, quarries, mines. Rarely plantations and camps. Farms are utterly useless, obviously.

He uses Community Quick User Interface mod - CQUI. Highly recommended. It makes the UI actually... usable. Hopefully most of its features makes it to R&F. Should've been in vanilla, tbh.

16. VictoriaReginaSupporter

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One thing you may be missing there is chop crabs and copper just before Big Ben. They should net you 400-450 gold each which is then doubled. I sometimes settle cities near them just because this is such a huge boost.

17. Lily_LancerChieftain

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Usually you need ~25,000 gold and double it by Big Ben.

How to get gold
1: Eiffel Tower+Neighborhood. Build 1 farm on the tile with the highest appeal for each city, chop for Eiffel Tower, once you unlocked "Urbanization""Conservation" and have the Eiffel Tower built, place neighborhoods on these farms. This strategy gives you ~10,000 gold. (Also the reason why late game conquest being still profitable)

2:Harvest Copper and Crab, those resources are really good for harvest. Settle cities to harvest them. Don't miss any on the map. This harvest gives you ~5,000 gold on a standard map I think.

3:Self-generated gold. In fact you only need ~10,000 now. You said you have reached 7000~8000, good job.
Maybe you missed a point, Forbidden City, this wonder needs to be built ASAP, one more slot can give you ~100GPT. (The same as 2 slots for Democracy)

4: The above are non-Aztec strategy. Aztec don't really need GS or gold.

18. Livio CocconcelliChieftain

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Thank you so much for the advices, it is simply very difficult to not forget something important.
For a T130 victory it's not simple to manage to build 2 more Wonder, or to chop 5 different space projects. You probably need to send builder and settlers in position at around turn 90-100, and you are in the middle of building your university in the secondaries cities or eureka units/buildings in your primary cities at this time. You can't just chop everything!
I've tried again last weekend, but without god of the forge I missed my war timing a bit, delaying conquest, and without focus on Commercial HubI I lost a lot of culture from +2/district trade route CS bonus, and ended up at Turn 90 a little behind in city and culture from my first run. I will try again, trying to abuse the +150% monarchy wall overflow this time.

19. Boyan_SunChieftain

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The easier way to test is beginning at information era. The civic progress is 47/50=94%(bigger than tech progress), so the chop bonus is 20*(1+9*94%)=189. You can chop a tree for satellite project (please mind the overflow), then you will see it only got 189 production, even with +10% Happiness and +30% Democracy.