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Science Victory Strategy (and boasting!) Compendium ツ

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by yung.carl.jung, Nov 23, 2016.

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what Civ are we playing as?

  1. SUMERIA

    2 vote(s)
    8.0%
  2. SCYTHIA

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. MACEDON

    3 vote(s)
    12.0%
  4. AZTEC

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  5. GERMANY

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  6. ROME

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  7. OTHER (please specify itt)

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  1. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I wouldn't say it is an exploit, rather a decision. You lose a lot of things from not finishing techs as well, you know. Like getting worse chops and harvests, which is huge in my opinion. Also you are wasting science by sitting on 1 turn technologies, if my understanding of overflow is correct (it never is :>).

    It's all about finding the perfect balance!

    21 Cities at t100 and still going strong with Knights and Crossbows! Managed to get to Research Labs at t111 which is a new personal record. This might actually turn out to be my fastest game so far, doubt I can beat your t190 victory though since I only have Campuses and barely any Industrial Zones or Commerce Hubs..
     
  2. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Wow, that sounds great! I think you should be able to beat T190. Though it sounds like your research is already so fast that those Research Labs might not be needed. If you go too hard on science you might end up like I did in one of my previous games when I was done teching T166, then still needed over 20 turns to get that darn thing up into space. Depends also on how hard you have been beelining. In my Norway game I was a few turns away from Electricity in 1 AD (T116) with a quite hard beeline.

    For reference, I looked at some earlier saves and saw that most cities started building Campus projects around T160. T161 only 2 cities were still putting the last turns into power plants and one city was building a spy to protect the spaceport. Those three started on Campus projects a few turns later. Carl Sagan was the 6th Great Scientist I recruited after this, so 30 turns for 6 Great Scientists with 12 cities building Campus projects (one city was building space projects and 3 cities didn't have a campus). A couple of my cities were really weak, but most had decent production. I did get lucky when Carl Sagan was the first info era scientist to appear. Had he been the last, my victory would have been delayed by a lot.

    You have more cities, so you should be able to crank out Great Scientists a bit faster. Though if I were you I'd aim at having power plants up everywhere by T160 to start on the projects. Keep in mind that Campus projects also give a lot of science, so you will see a massive spike when you switch to building those. And all the scientists you get are likely to earn you most of the later era Eurekas. This would be if you plan on using info era scientists for your Mars Modules. I'm still considering if there are any better options. Getting the scientists is so slow. I wonder if it would be faster with more spaceports and only using the +1500 production Engineer and chops... I did that in my first science victory and managed to launch 3 turns after the last tech was researched, even though I 1 turned most techs after Rocketry. Though this was a later victory (T225) so most cities had a lot more infra up in the late game.
     
  3. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Finally finished my Sumeria game! I am now convinced that Gilgamesh & Tommyris are the best leaders for a scientific victory, maybe with Germany thrown in there. I finished on t180 with so, so many mistakes made, not ideal great people luck, my production getting sabotaged and many other mistakes. I may do a write up later or edit the OP, not sure. I can definitely get a t170 win there, maybe earlier.

    Honestly, I might consider selling cities as an exploit. It is exactly as you said elitetroops, the AI can gain gold out of nowhere, it does not make sense at all. I had more than 500gpt just from deals. It makes a lot of sense and deals aren't too insane.. I sold like 6 cities and got an average of 100-200gpt per city (all between 3 and 6 pop). The AI will only take a deal if a city is really close to their border, otherwise they are not interested. Sometimes they will not even take a city if it directly borders them for no reason. It's strange.

    I think I figured out the ideal way to win now, will definitely up the strategy section soon. Goes something like this: Beeline Research Labs, but never build them. Only needed to get in that era for the Great People to appear. Then beeline your preferred info era tech, all while researching as few technologies as humanly possible. Get Campuses in every city, but only build Libraries and Universities. Science is never the bottleneck for me, I was actually deleting Great Scientists for a thousand gold (pre patch) instead of using them, just to get to Sagan faster. Industrial Hub should be second. This order is really important for the Great People points. You want to get all the buildings up asap, I had so many unimproved tiles in my empire, because at a certain point (t140 to t150) it is always better to stop producing any buildings or units and just spam city projects. You shouldn't even use money to rushbuy anything that isn't Power Plants imo. Just save it for Democracy and Great People. Probably ideal would be to stop using any money 20 turns prior to getting Democracy and start on Big Ben, then sell a few cities and double your treasury. Should be enough to get you four to five Great People together with the projects.

    I'm not one of the best players at all. Someone with more patience who micromanages more and doesn't klick next turn without thinking like an idiot will undoubtedly do much better than me. I am 100% certain that in the pre-patch game a sub t150 SV is possible. Maybe post-patch it'd be something like sub t170. Not being able to delete Workers with 1 Charge left and unneeded GP is a big deal. Not being able to delete your army (I only had like 6 or 7 corps that conquered the entire world, gave me like 5000 or something..) also is.
     
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Congrats, that's a great date!

    I would consider selling cities kind of exploity, yes. Though it might not be as efficient with the fall patch, because I haven't seen AI with 100-200gpt available after the patch. In my Norway game I did settle a city to sell to Russia, though this was very late and mainly to test the mechanic. I got less out of the deal than I had money in my treasury in the end, so it didn't have any effect on the victory date. However, just this morning I reloaded the game from before selling the city to test something. I found I could sell the pop 1 city to Russia for 1200 gold, 30 gpt and a book, this added 8 tiles to it's cultural borders, then I could immediately buy that same city back for 15 gold, 3 gpt and a resource. Now that is an exploit for sure!

    In my opinion city trades should work like they did in Civ IV. In IV the only thing that could be on the opposite side of the table in a city trade was a peace deal. You could gift cities and you could get cities in peace treaties, but you could never get anything in return for a city, nor buy a city. Despite not being able to get anything in return, gifting cities still allows some of the biggest exploits in IV, and I can think of a ton of possible exploits in VI as well.
     
  5. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I think selling cities in and of itself is perfectly fine, it only becomes broken when you can sell 5+ cities to an AI and they still have infinite money to hand out to you. After all not only are you sacrificing yields, but also all the future yields this city will bring, additional boni like possible trade routes that you couldn't get otherwise and the land that won't be available anymore.

    Did they really not fix the trade bug with the fall patch, seriously? That's some bs. I've never once done the sell then rebuy exploit, but yeah it should give you infinite money pretty fast. Not into that however.

    Lately I've been thinking about how to create ideal scenarios, mainly for early expansion, early conquest and city placement. I think Deity / Large Map / High Water Level (closer to AI cities and CS for early game boost/steals) is pretty ideal. I tested out new world (lots of hills and mountains) and it sucked, but lategame it would be incredible to have all these mountains and adjacency boni.. Otoh you could play old world, have great exploration, conquest, settling and generally a good start, but be starved of lategame hammers. I think old world would be incredibly effective with Gilgamesh/Tommyris though..
     
  6. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    In the test I made, after selling the city and buying it back, Peter would only offer me 1gpt to buy it a second time, so at least no immediate infinite gold. Though I also just heard about another infinite gold bug....

    The problem with selling cities is that it's a feature that won't ever be used for anything but exploiting the AI. The AI will never initiate such deals themselves, which means the deals will only happen on your terms when you wish to make such a deal. A feature that exists only to benefit the player when the player chooses to make use of it is bad design imo.

    Also, in my example, even if I couldn't buy the city back it's a really bad exploit. Buy a settler for 500-600 gold, settle a city and sell it for 2000 gold.
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    The entire trade screen is only there to exploit the AI :D

    Though I see what you're saying. To me, that's not a problem. It's the same reason I was never against Worker Stealing or Pillage Repair in Civ V, which both are also some form of exploit. I guess I arbitrarily set a bar between what is and what is not while you have an actual definition to go by, but I can't lie: I have fun exploiting the AI and trying to find ways to do it as much as possible.

    Maybe if in this game you could Actually lose I wouldn't, but as of now, the competitiveness is just 0 and the only fun is competing for win times.
     
  8. Karoq

    Karoq Chieftain

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    Giving it a try.

    I started a game with Gilghemesh. on I'm turn 83 and I've been in the medevil age for maybe 8 turns. I took out a few neighboring CS because I was totally surrounded and had no breathing room. I getting a workshop up in 6 turns and have a campus in each of my four cities ( I know I need more). I've got the last three great scientists in a row also. I'm optimistic, but this is my first try so idk how well I am really doing for a sub T200 SV. any advice?
     
  9. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    I don't really have any definition either... Or when I play Civ IV I can say that whatever is allowed by HoF and GoTM rules is fine, what they consider an exploit I consider an exploit. In Civ VI there are no such rules to go by yet, so it's just a matter of taste, I guess. Things like worker stealing, or in the case of Civ VI settler stealing, I wouldn't consider an exploit. I mean, I'd like the possibility to steal settlers to be removed from the game, but as long as it is possible I will for sure take the free settlers the AI offers to me. :D

    4 cities T83 is a bit slow for Gilgamesh. His strongest ability is the War Cart, which can easily take out a couple of AI very early. By now it might not be very useful anymore. What difficulty level are you playing?
     
  10. Karoq

    Karoq Chieftain

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    I was trying to rush as many cities as I could before I started to get warmonger penalties, but I hit the classical age pretty fast. I think one mistake I made was to use too many war carts when attacking when I should have attained two cities at once. I am only playing on prince :(

    I've got another three sites picked out for new cities and I've got some gold to buy settlers.
     
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Don't worry about warmonger penalties. What the AI thinks of you makes no difference since you're leaving for Mars soon anyway. ;) With war carts you should probably keep conquering for as long as they are effective. Haven't used them myself, but I'd imagine they are effective for quite a while on Prince. Though on Prince the AI also doesn't build enough cities for you to capture, so this makes it a bit trickier... You probably want to build a lot of settlers yourself, but also use the war carts to capture whatever AI cities there are nearby. Hard to say anything more detailed without seeing the map.
     
  12. Karoq

    Karoq Chieftain

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    Hmm... I think I might restart with Gilgamesh and really put the screws to the AI with my war carts. Idk why i was being so timid.
     
  13. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    But you do! And a good one at that, imo:

    So if a feaure is completely unilateral, that 100% makes it an exploit.

    When playing as Sumeria (I play them and Germany almost exlusively) usually my games will go like this:

    Scout / Scout / Worker (Inspiration for 3 tile improvements, you need to get the +50% Military prod. card) / Settler / Spam Slingers (until you can get to the +100% Cavalry production card) / Spam War carts / Spam Settlers (usually Early Empire comes too soon for me, so I will get one more civic and then change to settler production).

    This should be your general outline for Civics/Production. Of course getting one or two early War carts instead of Scouts works, too. As for Tech I would refrain from researching Archery until you have at least four, preferably more Slingers, then head towards Commerce and Industrial Districts, then towards Knights (time it with the -50% upgrade cost card) and then you can either go for Plastics (Research Labs) or Factories. Hope this helped :)
     
  14. cyrilp

    cyrilp Chieftain

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    Great Tread, thanks a lot !!

    would love to get a more detailed walk-trough :)
     
  15. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Forgot to reply to this when you posted it. I didn't say it's an exploit because of that, I said it's bad design to have such features. Especially if it is something that can be used for very large gain, like selling cities. I still think Civ IV got this right when it didn't allow money to change hands in peaceful city transactions. In Civ VI you can also exploit gifting cities, there's no need to add money to the deals to make the exploit even stronger.
     
  16. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    I'm a bit divided on this. When you just build 3 war carts you can have your first city state on turn 20. There are also a lot of people that prey on enemy settlers. So I'm wondering what the most effective opening would be.
     
  17. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    "Just" building 3 War Carts also means that you spend at least 20 turns, often much longer, up to 25 depending on your cap. And you don't even have a Scout, meaning you probably haven't met many City States / Civilizations. Also you're wasting Hammers, since I think the best investment is to build War Carts when you have the +100% (+50% after Patch I believe) production card.You can definitely use Scouts to steal Settlers to, I've done it numerous times.

    However starting with War Carts is also very viable and arguably gives you more options to choose from, which is always a good thing Getting a City State at ~T20 is a big deal, but so is delaying exploration of the map until way later in the game. I would say unless you meet a militaristic CS that going double scout, or at least single scout, is still better for your average game, but if you are playing on a small map or on a dense standard map with weak neighbors, or any type of Island or Continents map then War Cart openings are probably better.

    To be honest I am not playing the game right now, because I feel like I've been a little excessive with it :D I will resume most likely in a month or two, but I will definitely update this thread before that with a screenshot & playthrough of the t180 SV. Thanks for your input, I'll try out the War Cart opening again for sure!
     
    cyrilp likes this.
  18. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Thanks for the clarification that scouts can steal settlers:

    (1) How reliable is stealing settlers? How many settlers can you steal on average (0-2?)
    (2) On average, how does that compare to the "reliable" early city state?
    (3) Around what turn can you usually steal your first settlers?

    Sorry, if I'm bothering, but these questions are IMHO important.
     
  19. trojan13

    trojan13 Chieftain

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    1) usually 1 in my plays. I move scout around AI cities after I met her. If AI keep settler in capitals, then it can be 2 when I kill her.
    2) Use number 4 to swap into settler lense. Always move one tile per click and head to red area, this will increase your chance of finding CS.
    3) It is really up to distance, can be around T10 if AI is very next to me, or T20 or later otherwise.
     
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  20. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    Sub turn 200 Science victory is really good! I've had multiple finishes in the 220-240 range depending on how the Great Person stack comes out. One of these days I'll have a stack that can instant the spaceship parts in a game where I don't make other mistakes and get my finish time closer to 200.

    I generally find Gold more useful than production when going space. If you end up hard building the spaceship you'll never have a decent finish time. Gold to rush the Great People stack is more important. And Trade Routes are what you need to boost the single Spaceport city's production. I'll still build Industrial districts, but often mostly just for their adjacency bonuses.

    There is the Settlers Retreat mod for that. I personally don't Settler steal because I feel it negates the early game economy.
     

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