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Science Victory Strategy (and boasting!) Compendium ツ

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by yung.carl.jung, Nov 23, 2016.

?

what Civ are we playing as?

  1. SUMERIA

    2 vote(s)
    8.0%
  2. SCYTHIA

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. MACEDON

    3 vote(s)
    12.0%
  4. AZTEC

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  5. GERMANY

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  6. ROME

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  7. OTHER (please specify itt)

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  1. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    Which difficulty do you play? The only time I went for Science was when I was still on King, and I had to hard-build the spaceship because the AI couldn't grab Great People at all. In the end, I launched it before the Atomic Era Great People.
     
  2. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    You are not bothering at all. Quite the opposite, please feel welcome to ask any questions at all!

    1) Actually I've gotten far more Settlers than 2 in some of my games. In the Rome game that I already did the write-up on I got 3 from England, 1 from Kongo and could have gotten more, but did not want to start a war. 2 from England came very early, before T30. The last one was in her cap, which happens a lot as others have pointed out. In my t180 Sumeria game I stole 2 English settlers at around T25, then got another one in the 30's from Norway. Of course these scenarios happen differently in any game, but with a War Cart start Settler stealing is even more effective than with a Scout start. You can even take escorted Settlers easily with 2 WCs. I would say in my average game I get at least one or two Settlers by either finding them or conquering a city that has a Settler in it.

    2) Finding a Settler is not as good as conquering a CS, because the CS will be 1) territory you otherwise would not have had 2) has better resources most likely 3) might already have pop 2 or a building ready. However even with all those boni, self-settling is still much better I feel. Because sacrificing CS values is always a trade-off, while settling is not.

    What CS do you conquer? Religious, Militaristic and Culture ones are the only ones I go for, but these are the best of the best in the early game. Having +1 Hammer to WC, Slingers, Scout, Worker, Settler production in all my cities is a huge bonus. Especially because I tend to build a very early Settler and steal at least one, so that is 3 cities spamming Slingers or WC. With the +100% Hammer policy (+50% after patch) that is 6 Hammers total! The same goes for culture.. +2 Culture is such a big deal. Helps you get the +% Production policies faster, helps you get Early Empire faster, helps you get first Government faster, helps you get to Feudalism and so on. Religious CS you should almost always conquer, they are only good for a Pantheon and maybe if you conquer a lot of AI cities with a Holy Site.. Otherwise pretty useless.

    Otoh Commerce, Industrial and Scientific CS give comparably worse boni early game, but gamechanging ones lategame, so I always refrain from conquering them. It really is mostly about trade-off with conquering CS.

    3) Sometimes earlier than t10. It has happened a few times with the high sea-level option. The AI is still in a terrible shape. I played a game recently where Brazil just refused to move their Settler out of their capital, then built another one and did not move it either. This is some alpha stage bs. I just walked my Warrior over, stole their Settler on t10, could not be chased because melee units are worthless in this game and cannot do anything under rough terrain, and founded a few tiles away from his City. Fortified my Warrior on rough terrain and there was nothing Brazil could do, even with its army of 4 Warriors. I had a funny Germany game once where I found a Settler T7 with my Warrior. It's like starting with 2 capitals. Sadly all the land was trash so I never played it out..

    Generally speaking though around t20 is when the AI is building the Settler for its third city, so that's when I would watch out the most. Hope this helped!

    I almost always play on Deity, but it makes no difference. The AI barely ever builds districts that aren't useless. I have only once (!) conquered a Campus. In the lategame you will have to buy lots of bad/useless Great People to get to Carl Sagan or his Engineer counterpart, that is just how the game works right now. That is also why elitetroops and me were having a discussion about city projects and when to start them. When you get the GP pretty much determines when you win.

    The thing is: Hammers do the exact same thing as gold. They run City Projects, giving you GP points. I feel like they are actually more effective, in a way, especially the Engineer Project, because that gives you gold as well.

    The main reason though why Indu Hubs are so important are Factories and Plants. They enter your empire in a second phase of snowballing and are, imo, the single most important buildings in the game, much more important than even the Science buildings. Especially with the City State for +range. Sometimes a single Factory can yield like 20 Hammers in total because I always settle my cities at absolute minimum distance. And of course you can have as many as 6 or 7 cities interacting in that way, so all of them give out between 10 and 15 Hammers with Toronto. This is why Indu Hubs are such a good investment. Otherwise I don't think they're so good, because Trade Hubs actually give better and earlier production than they do. If it wasn't for those buildings they would be better in every way! With production, you always have to take time into account, when does it pay off in terms of Hammers? The later the building comes the worse it gets, so I dislike that Indu Hubs come so late. Often times I will beeline the tech just so I can place Indu Hubs as the second district in at least some of my cities.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  3. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    From what you are saying I get the feeling it would be much better to send 2 war carts on settler hunting. Especially because you can also explore, get envoys, villages & attack an enemy civ instead of conquering those nice city states you have an envoy with.

    I also want to do a little "erratum": I myself only managed to take a city state on turn 26 with a very good capital, but without using the initial warrior (he was sent on exploration). The turn 20 comes from a let's play on youtube & I just checked & he was not playing on standard speed but quick speed:

     
  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I still have like three or four absolutely amazing saves from pre-patch game that I will play once I get back to Germany. I will definitely try a game with WC - WC - WC - Worker - Scout - Scout - Settler, then another with Scout - WC - WC - WC - Builder - Settler and another one with WC - WC - WC - Scout - Scout - Builder - Settler.

    I managed to get one save where I had a hill spice tile, but the rest was crap sadly :cry: Rolled at least like 50 games in total, maybe more..
     
  5. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    In my opinion, difficulty might matter since on higher difficulties the AI start with more Settlers and should produce them at a faster pace (well, not guaranteed it will churn out one, but still there's the chance), therefore there are more cities around to conquer instead of building them from scratch :D

    I always underrated those projects, though. Thinking back, maybe I've been over-emphasizing infrastructure and expansion...
     
  6. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I don't even get Research Labs, Banks, Stock Exchanges.. I even skip Universities, Factories and Power Plants in cities in bad locations or with little production. After you have like 300-400 Science per turn it doesn't matter anymore at all, the only thing that influences your win time from now on is GP spawn, gold income, centralized production and city projects :)
     
  7. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    Interesting solution. I personally feel settlers should either (1) just be damaged/killed when you attack them or (2) give you +1 pop in a nearby city. If you think about it, it seems weird that you can "capture" a foreign settler trek & order the people to settle a city that would be loyal to you.
     
  8. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    I liked when you captured a Settler in Civ V and it would turn into a Worker. Makes some sense in bringing those civilians into slave labor in the first eras.
     
  9. whacker

    whacker Warlord

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    I found this thread quite late, hello everyone! :)

    I usually play on deity, sadly i dont have a deity SV saved, as i only save my wins for gauntlets and Gotm's.
    What i can offer is a t180 SV with India, which i originally played for the Beta Gauntlet #2. This only is King difficulty though.

    T190 deity with _Norway_ is really impressive! Good job elitetroops. Sad you did not pick another civ for that map, i wonder what would have been possible.
     

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  10. whacker

    whacker Warlord

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    T181 SV deity with Scythia.

    Usually i do CD/Big Ben finish, this time i tried to do it with projects only, which worked out even better than expected. I got lucky and Toronto/Hongkong both were in the game, the rest of the citystates were bad ones, i guess Seoul gave me some science at least.

    I killed Teddy(2 cities+1settler chilling in the city) and 3 city states close to my capital. I also got a settler from a barb camp pretty late into the game ~t140). After i finished conquering/settling i had 20 cities, 21 in the end. My army consisted of 8 horsemen and 3 archers.

    I went for IZ in all cities into campus. For district improvements i chose workshop->factory>library>university->powerplant. I also did build 4 CD´s+markets/banks to get rid of midgame gold problems, traderoutes, and heurekas. at t148 i started research projects in the first city and by t155 each city was projecting :).

    I finished the starport in t167, hardbuilt satelite and half of moon landing, rushed the rest.
    Near the end i swapped to IZ projects because i had every scientist and Korolev was still missing.

    Could have finished 1 turn earlier, but Korolev spawned in the wrong city and so i needed one additional turn.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  11. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Congrats whacker!! Since your entry came later then mine, that means you are now officially the new champion! It doesn't matter at all if your victory was at King difficulty, at Deity, or at Settler. You can use all the map options, choose all the opponents, the only thing that isn't legit is if you pick legendary start or abundant resources of course. We're here to experiment, after all!

    I will update the Opening Post with your t180 India win.

    Very interesting that you can reach t181 going IZ first over Campus. What this teaches me is that I will probably go IZ first now in all my non-core cities and definitely second in my others. Seems like Factories and Power Plants are just too damn overpowered :D

    You finished Space Port t167, so I guess you got the tech somewhere around t150? I started building mine t140 in my game and still only managed t180 victory :) Very impressive.
     
  12. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    @whacker Since you seem to have a very nicely optimized build with IZ first for SV, may I suggest to try out a Germany game?
    With the Hansa at half cost, you should be able to get your buildings and other districts online faster which should translate into a faster finish time.
     
  13. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Idk about that, I still feel like Sumeria and Scythia get the best finishing times just because you have a much easier time with early conquest. In my game with t180 victory I had 21 cities by t100, I don't think any other Civ can get similiar results on average. And I say that even though Germany is probably my favorite Civ and definitely the single best Civ for peaceful play :D
     
  14. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    Well, if you are limiting yourself to conquering a few CS and one AI (as he did in his Scythia game), I think you can pull that off with any civ as long as you have two horses. However, you are probably right in that it would probably take more time conquest-wise to achieve the same result. However, if the AI is slow to get walls and doesn't go Oligarchy, it should be a walk in the park regardless. On the other hand, from what I have seen the AI tends to do Oligarchy 90% of time.
     
    yung.carl.jung likes this.
  15. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    In my Norway game I had 15 cities by t90, stopped conquering there. 21 cities by t100 would have been hard, but with another good target nearby I could have made it to at least 18 with the army I had. On the right map any civ can do fast conquest, though Sumeria or Scythia are of course even faster. Haven't played Sumeria, Scythia or Germany yet. Hard to tell which one of those has the most impactful bonuses. I have a feeling Germany might still be the strongest of them all. They might need to put some more production into an army, but they save a ton of production on half price Hansa and the ability to lock down the cost of 3 districts in a pop 1 city. They also don't have any problems with AI making bad district choices in the cities you conquer. In my Norway game many conquered cities were slow to get up and running, because with 1-2 prebuilt crap districts it took very long before I could build Campus and IZ.
     
    yung.carl.jung and 4N4C0ND4 like this.
  16. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    I just finished a Science Victory with Germany, though it was very slow compared to some victory times here (207 turns). I'd like to share some of my mistakes here so people may avoid them, and one thing or two I found useful.
    • Don't be afraid of expansion. I mean, seriously, that's the single most important advice. My old rule of thumb was "take all AI Civs within 9 tiles from your capital". It led to problems since my 3 neighbors had cities outside this range and I hadn't planned my military to take their somewhat far-away cities. Now I expanded my range to 12 tiles, at least.
    • You only need Campi, Industrial Zones, Commercial Hubs and Entertainment Complexes. If you've been conquering enough, you should have enough resources to build troops without Encampments. Harbors are acceptable, though they come in a dead-end tech. I should have built Neighborhoods only in my core cities, the rest might've been fine with Granaries/Water Mills/Sewers
    • Beeline Factories and Power Plants. That's one thing I think I got just right. They made quite an impact after they came.
    • Don't build all your Campi too early. It's fine to build Campi early in your core cities, since they come way before Commercial Hubs or Industrial Zones. But once those come up, prioritize them. But don't neglect Campi, just build them after those.
    • Don't neglect Monuments. I should have built them way earlier. It delayed Natural History (needed for Zoos), which led to problems with amenities. Once I had them in almost every city, I just cruised through the Civics tree.
    • Well-timed transition to city projects is important. I found it best to change to them after I had many improved tiles, Factories and Powerplants online and trade routes to the cap.
    • You sometimes need a few Markets going around. Not many, but a few should help. I ran into problems due to all those district buildings and a quite large army before Corps.
    Do any of you has anything to comment about those points?
     
  17. mayhemster

    mayhemster Chieftain

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    @ShinigamiKenji - I don't think you don't need Neighbourhoods or Entertainment Complexes (except 1 for Colosseum). A well placed Colosseum can almost take care of all your Amenities on its own, you can usually rush buy it with a great engineer if you have been prioritizing IZ and the buildings that go with them
     
  18. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    I had few Luxury resources in that game, so that's why I needed a few Entertainment Complexes. Still, I think I needed only 3 or 4 well-placed ones in a 17-city empire. And yes, I did rush-built Colosseum, which almost held up until Natural History.

    I realized my mistake in building Neighborhood in every city, I should have built them only in my capital (for increased worked tiles and production specialists). I had to hard build the first 2 victory projects because Carl Sagan only arrived while building the Martian Colony parts.

    Without making these little mistakes, I might have just finished in 200 turns. What really slowed me down was my slower conquests very early in the game.
     
  19. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I generally have one or two Entertainment Complexes, just because I am always fighting at least 2 wars simultaneously and war-weariness is an actual problem. Luckily since wars are all about cities and peace deals anyway they usually start fast and end fast. Stalemates are never worth it.

    I actually never build neighborhoods.. Sometimes in the cap and my tallest city I guess?

    Can you guys give you a general # of turns of when you start on the Spaceport? Mine came significantly earlier than some itt (around t140 I think?) yet my cities were underdeveloped because I focussed on science and prioritized campus in every city. Not sure where exactly the breaking point is here.
     
  20. whacker

    whacker Warlord

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    I never start spaceport before t150, as i proceed slowly through the tech tree in the beginning without campi. Usually it takes around 10 turns to finish it. (given i have all workers on mines, all traderoutes in the city, Ruhr and Toronto).
    I often complete the tech tree 1-2 turns before finishing, or even in the last turn. Using great scientists that give flat science to give me 3 techs in one turn helps a lot, otherwise i would not be able to complete the tech tree in time.

    I think it is really important to get some workers out as soon as you have feudalism to improve 4-5 mines in evey city and chop some trees and stone to speed up factories. The later you will get those workers the less your cities benefit from the extra production yields. With overlapping factories/powerplants a mine does hardly anything for you.
     

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