Science vs production balance

[skallben]

The higher the difficulty, the faster the research. We breeze through the eras and it never feels like production is enough. It's been agreed upon that production is the most important commodity in Civ VI but what if the real problem is that the eras progress too fast?
The strongest case for an imbalance might be the hop from King to Emperor, suddenly every AI starts with two settlers. Industrial age start at 1000 AD. I can only imagine on Deity. I know this has been the case in previous games aswell, but it does not mean it's a good thing. First mod I get is usually one to balance out this flaw. What do you think?

 

[PhilBowles]

I do miss year being a relevant metric - it would be nice if there was a different axis to alter game difficulty along than research speed. Back in the days of Civ I and Civ II, hitting gunpowder much earlier than the historical date of 8-900 AD was actually an achievement. Industrial Era at 1000 AD (think on my playthrough it was closer to 1200) makes a mockery of the whole concept of modelling the development of civilisation. Managing a better rate than the real world should be an actual accomplishment, not the default.

 

[LoneDragon]

I'm close to winning my game (King difficulty) and I'm way ahead of all the other Civs in technology. And I haven't built a single Campus!

 

[rpgalon]

Not only the eras progress too fast, you get small/no rewards for being ahead in tech.

Let's say you focused heavy on tech to get ahead, and doing so you sacrificed production for science.

Now look at how some units production cost scale as you move up the tech tree.

Horseman (80) -> Knight (180) -> Cavalry (330) -> Helicopter (600)

So, for each new unit you unlocked you would need 2x as many production to keep pumping the same amount / turn. So while you rushed knight and is pumping 1 / 5 turns, the guy who went for production is pumping horseman at 1 / 1 turn.

In other words, you get almost no bonus for investing hard on science since any stuff you unlock is exponentially harder to produce, it's worse because you sacrificed production to invest in science and unlock them earlier.



So far, with the current values of science/tech, you need to ignore a little the tech tree and go for production focus, this way you get a nice rate of Tech/production, where you can build your stuff pretty fast.

Also district cost goes up the more tech you have, so yet another reason to ignore science and go all production.

 

[CivScientist]

This might be the first Civ game that doesn't have science as the primary metric. That's very different but I could learn to like it.

I mean, must it always be about science where backwards civs have no chance of winning? All that changes really is we focus on maxing out production instead of science.

 

[joncnunn]

Yes, and science progression is too fast at ALL difficulty levels, not just higher ones. Tech costs basically needs something like the Civ IV balance patch applied that increases all tech costs starting in Midevil era; with larger increase in cost the further down in the tech tree it is.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Maybe they should nerf the campus base yield and citizens science yield and instead add great work of science who work much like the great works of culture but give science instead of culture. It to seems like the culture tree is slower and it take more work to develop good culture then it take to develop good science due to a major culture factor are great works

The only solution may be to make science and culture cost depend on the amount of cities, to make campuses and theater squares more valuable they could reduce its city's effect on tech and culture cost by half or so.

 

[Cabbagesavager]

Maybe they should nerf the campus base yield and citizens science yield and instead add great work of science who work much like the great works of culture but give science instead of culture. It to seems like the culture tree is slower and it take more work to develop good culture then it take to develop good science due to a major culture factor are great works

The only solution may be to make science and culture cost depend on the amount of cities, to make campuses and theater squares more valuable they could reduce its city's effect on tech and culture cost by half or so.

Pretty much everything on the tech tree are great works of science

 

[rpgalon]

Maybe they should nerf the campus base yield and citizens science yield and instead add great work of science who work much like the great works of culture but give science instead of culture. It to seems like the culture tree is slower and it take more work to develop good culture then it take to develop good science due to a major culture factor are great works

The only solution may be to make science and culture cost depend on the amount of cities, to make campuses and theater squares more valuable they could reduce its city's effect on tech and culture cost by half or so.

I would go the complete oposite way, reduce the science you get from population, increase the science cost of techs, reduce Eureka to 33%.

Now maybe your production will keep up with your tech.

 

[Matthew.]

I don't think any specific area is to blame other than the actual tech costs themselves. I don't think the campus district is overly powerful, or bonuses from science city-states, or whatever else. If anything, the ratio between science and the other yields is much more competitive in this game than the last one. However, the base tech cost themselves feels too short. Most techs will be boosted without even trying, so most techs only take like 5 turns to complete.

 

[randomwalker]

I agree that we are blasting through ages too fast.
In my first two games (king level), stonehenge was the only wonder finished (by any civ) before the medieval age, and the great scientists came with their eurekas after the techs were already developed. I found myself repeatedly researching medieval and later tech without waiting for eurekas because my cities simply couldn't keep up the pace.

a flat % increase of all research cost would strongly favour certain civs and tactics, but a steeper slope as you go through the ages would be good. (ie say 20% costlier classical tech, 40% medieval, etc).

 

[rpgalon]

I don't see more than 1 GP of the same type in each Era, when the first one is purchased the game change the GP selection to the next era because Civs are already there.

 

[skallben]

What's you guys thoughts on Eurecas? Are they OP, should they perhaps net, say 35% instead of 50?

 

[elitetroops]

What's you guys thoughts on Eurecas? Are they OP, should they perhaps net, say 35% instead of 50?

I'd say Eurekas down to 33% and Great Scientists that boost techs can give an additional 33% (or 50%) on top that. This way the random boosts from great people would actually be useful.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What's you guys thoughts on Eurecas? Are they OP, should they perhaps net, say 35% instead of 50?

No, Eurekas should definitely stay 50%...that is needed to tie the tech tree to playstyle

If you want Great Scientists boosts to be useful have them give a flat 50% cost (so it gives you the tech completely if you have the Eureka)..or make Eurekas rarer/harder.

If tech is going too fast, then just increase the cost of the techs

If Eurekas are too common (ie you are getting all the Eurekas even for playstyles you don't follow) then make them harder, not weaker.

 

[3 EMS]

Yes, and science progression is too fast at ALL difficulty levels, not just higher ones. Tech costs basically needs something like the Civ IV balance patch applied that increases all tech costs starting in Midevil era; with larger increase in cost the further down in the tech tree it is.

I'm only on Prince difficulty. Still in my first game because I'm playing a large map on marathon speed. I am going for space victory. Every once in a while a civ will declare on me. I'm so far ahead that I just steamroll them with an artillery army linked to a balloon, 1 tank, 1 infantry, and a helicopter. It doesn't matter how many crossbowmen, musket men, or whatever they throw at me. They are no match. I'm taking coastal cities with 2 ships. One ranged and a destroyer.
I built 2 science districts and maxed them out. University in each one? I no longer need science as I'm at future tech now. So the science part of winning a science victory is the easy part.

 

[Matthew.]

I don't mind eureka bonuses even if they are easy to get. They give incentive to "play out" several different aspects of the game. Settling on the coast, sending out a slinger to kill something, etc. They are a bit like game achievements, and can be fun to hunt after.

Whether 33% or 50%, the base cost of techs seems too low to me. Even without eureka bonuses, I think people would naturally go through the tech tree very quickly. Some people are even saying they end up ignoring a lot of the eureka bonuses because they simply don't have time to complete the task before you'd fully research it anyway.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'm only on Prince difficulty. Still in my first game because I'm playing a large map on marathon speed. I am going for space victory. Every once in a while a civ will declare on me. I'm so far ahead that I just steamroll them with an artillery army linked to a balloon, 1 tank, 1 infantry, and a helicopter. It doesn't matter how many crossbowmen, musket men, or whatever they throw at me. They are no match. I'm taking coastal cities with 2 ships. One ranged and a destroyer.
I built 2 science districts and maxed them out. University in each one? I no longer need science as I'm at future tech now. So the science part of winning a science victory is the easy part.

Future techs should increase the production of space ship parts...say 5% boost per time you research it)
(it would also be good if Globalization / Social media gave repeat bonuses... say +1 religious unit strength per research or +5% Tourism per research)

 

[3 EMS]

Future techs should increase the production of space ship parts...say 5% boost per time you research it)
(it would also be good if Globalization / Social media gave repeat bonuses... say +1 religious unit strength per research or +5% Tourism per research)

Thanks for the tip. I'm going to need that. While I was busy fighting a nonsense war, my industrial districts were sabotaged through spy spam. I spent as many turns repairing them as it would have taken to build the spaceports. Lesson learned. Now its going to be close but that's what first games are for.

"(it would also be good if Globalization / Social media gave repeat bonuses... say +1 religious unit strength per research or +5% Tourism per research)"
I could have easily won by either of these two methods as it is. Maybe its harder on higher levels but on Prince I'm way ahead. Religion is the only victory condition that I'm not leading. That's because I have only played that in a defensive role. Even then, I'm in second.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I have to agree. I've finished both trees more than 30 turns before achieving a victory in the two games I've completed (King and Emperor). Not sure that makes much sense.

Off topic: It seems I'm only posting about bugs, UI and other issues today. Truth is, I'm loving Civ VI and having a blast playing it, I just expect our feeback to help make the game even better.