Science vs Religion - The Ultimate Battle?

[MrPresident]

This thread/poll is not for fence-sitters (you know who you are). I have only included two options in the above poll for a reason. If you want to vote you must make a choice, science or religion. If you are undecided or think there is a middle ground then please exit this thread immediately using the exit points indicated. For those of you remaining, let the battle begin.

 

[ainwood]

Science all the way.

(hope you're not sitting on the fence in your own poll, MrPresident )

 

[Greadius]

Apples or oranges?

More like apples and concrete actually. Assuming people tried to build houses from apples.

 

[CornMaster]

The way I see it is the Religion is just a form of Oppression.

It attempts to control the masses.

Do this or you will burn in Hell.

If you don't believe in Hell, then what is stopping you?

If you remove this fear....more people would probably commit violent crimes.

However, Religion is also holding mankind back. Religion has started MANY wars that has probably killed more people than it has saved. I would say that Religion wars account for more wars the territory wars would. Much more.

But Religions people also try and stop/slow science and research. It's against my religion to exploit animals....well then why do you have 3 pets, and eat meat daily?

Many religious people are hippocrits.....or have distorted their religious believes sooooooo much that they do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want, and justify it by saying that God doesn't mind because they have been baptized....or saved. Bull-plop. If your God allows you to do this....then I don't want that God.

So essentially I've come to believe in Science over Religion. We are going to shape our future. Not God. And we shouldn't let ancient superstitions hold back mankind!

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Religion.

Science cannot provide comfort or meaning.

It used to be that religion was the opiate of the masses; now opium is the religion of the masses.

 

[Adebisi]

I would say that Religion wars account for more wars the territory wars would. Much more.

Can you mention a major war caused solely by religion, and not at all fought over territory?

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by Adebisi
Can you mention a major war caused solely by religion, and not at all fought over territory?

Let's see (in no particular order):

Ireland

The Crusades

The current Israel/Arab situation (if they didn't conflict religiously, they'd live together in the same land no prob.)

The "war" on terror

Yugoslavia

The Rwandan Massacre

Wars for sacrifices between Central American civilizations


Of course, it's harder to come up with examples of wars fought
only for religious purposes. Many have been driven by religious purposes, and wound up being conquests.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

As far as I am concerned, religion is a safety blanket for those who are afraid of ignorance. Science offers little comfort mainly because most of its "answers" only bring up further questions. Religion reassures the believers that there are answers, and that they are known. Some people require that sort of confirmation of purpose in the universe. I for one am content knowing that I am an insignificant speck in a chaotic universe that may or may not exist at all.

The ironic thing is that I would be considered an "atheist" -> ie. I believe there is no god. Actually, I just think that all current religions are bunk. There could be a god who caused the universe to exist for all I know... but I refuse to believe they built it like clockwork, or that they give a sh!t about humans at all.

 

[VoodooAce]

I'm going with Bart's answer:

Live a life of sin with a last minute, death bed conversion, lol.

Science!

 

[CurtSibling]

As you can see from the poll results;
The blind faith and intolerance of the bible is trampled yet again
By the forces of logic and questioning scientific curiosity.

I'm glad we live in such enlightened times!

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade

It used to be that religion was the opiate of the masses; now opium is the religion of the masses.

That's very quotable!

Hence, why I'm quoting it...

 

[Lt.Col. Kilgore]

We have to ask ourselves why was religion invented? It was invented to instill a meaning in people's lives who otherwise saw a cruel and subjective world. Nature as it was percieved and is percieved is very indifferent to human suffering. Hurricanes kill many just as flora and fauna heal and feed many. So when you come into this world with your perceptions that are less than perfect and your view of the world as cruel, in order for you to maintain your sanity there needs to be some sort of overall sense of objective/universal justice. Basically the philosophy of Socrates. The father of rationality and the enemy of the sophists. He reasoned that there was an underlying moral base for all peoples and it was completely objective and existed outside the human mind. This is nice and good, but it still hasn't been proven and will not because everyone, no matter how similar their ideas may be all have different views overall. These are effected by the ego, past experience, as well as preferences.

So while the objective of religion is noble it has its downfalls.
First, religious belief can't be proven by empirical evidence. Its been tried and has not succeeded. No one has proven the existance of any supernatural beings like we have proven the earth revolves around the sun or that if you shoot a cat in the face it will surely die. These are empirical. By that I mean they can be observed first hand with rudimentary knowledge or can be illustrated through applied mathematics. So the big problem with religion is that you are in all probabilty living a lie. Religion takes faith and faith is something employed by the mind to relieve feelings of helplessness and victimization by a cruel and uncaring nature of existance.
Second, religion like any other vice can be used to control the masses and this has been observed by many.
Third, it only contributes to wars of ego. By this I mean: "Those infidels in [whatever land] have a belief system that totally nullifies ours. Our we to belive that our view is merely subjective and have our belief, which is so important to the maintanence of our sanity, to be wrenched from us?! I say not! I say we either purge the earth of these infidels or subvert them so that their opossing viewpoints are no longer a threat to our view!" (Although this is also a side-effect of culture as well though I believe the benifits of culture outweigh the ill effects.)

Science can be objectively excercised via the scientific method. It is unarguably objective at its roots and can be said to be universal in its application and theory.
But science cannot explain or teach morals. It can't measure emotion (though it may measure the physiological effects or causes of emotion depending on YOUR belief! heh heh.) Science cannot tell us why it might be evil to kill innocent people nor can it justify it! Science has no concious of its own. So we as the weilders/practicioners of science must be ourselves concious of the progress we make. If we are folly we might deystroy ourselves.

Science has an argument against it! Nearly absolute skepticism. Since there is no reason or absolute proof that there is a higher being or existance, it is likewise true that there is no proof for what we percieve to actually be what we think! Now I'm getting into Cartesian philosophy but it is no way irrelevant! The only things anyone can be sure of is that one is concious at the time of perception of this truth. But what of outside your conciousness? Could it be an illusory construct in which our mind has created a sort of objective measurement system that seems precise and not subjective, but may very well be just a construct that has no real basis in our (appearant) reality though it does seem to have parallels. i.e. Strike a match and you make fire. There is no way to know these things as we are (VERY) imperfect humans. Perhaps there is a time when we may, but ubtil then do we really know exact truths? Or do we just know what we think is reality?

 

[Globber]

Random thoughts

Science can be objectively excercised via the scientific method. It is unarguably objective at its roots and can be said to be universal in its application and theory.

The definition of objectivity is subjective to different points of view ex. what we think is objective could be considered by others to be tainted or set up to show a certain effect (Done immensely in studies about certain products like cell phones)

Third, it only contributes to wars of ego. By this I mean: "Those infidels in [whatever land] have a belief system that totally nullifies ours. Our we to belive that our view is merely subjective and have our belief, which is so important to the maintanence of our sanity, to be wrenched from us?! I say not! I say we either purge the earth of these infidels or subvert them so that their opossing viewpoints are no longer a threat to our view!" (Although this is also a side-effect of culture as well though I believe the benifits of culture outweigh the ill effects.)

Yes, religion starts wars, but science is used to kill each other in those wars. If people only had their fists and their faith to go out and fight, there would be less bloodshed over religion.

But, as it stands, religious nuts are just psychos with no sense of reality....SCIENCE!!

 

[napoleon526]

Many of the people on this thread seem to assume anyone who is religious is exactly like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. Contrary to what they may think, it is possible to be a religious person and also be an enlightened individual. I'm a presbyterian, but I still believe in evolution, abortion rights, and the idea that the earth revolves around the sun. And why are these people blaming religion for wars started by human beings? Are they saying that if there was no religion, there would be less war? No! We'd just find some other reason to kill each other, because that's what humans do.

It's also possible to be religious and to be politically liberal. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, because as so many of you have mentioned, some people will use religion to further their own ends, just as some people use science for their own purposes.

What is everyone's problem with "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

 

[VoodooAce]

Cool post, Kilgore!

Er, uh, Lieutenant. *salutes*

 

[VoodooAce]

Originally posted by napoleon526
Many of the people on this thread seem to assume anyone who is religious is exactly like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. Contrary to what they may think, it is possible to be a religious person and also be an enlightened individual. I'm a presbyterian, but I still believe in evolution, abortion rights, and the idea that the earth revolves around the sun. And why are these people blaming religion for wars started by human beings? Are they saying that if there was no religion, there would be less war? No! We'd just find some other reason to kill each other, because that's what humans do.

It's also possible to be religious and to be politically liberal. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, because as so many of you have mentioned, some people will use religion to further their own ends, just as some people use science for their own purposes.

What is everyone's problem with "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

I think most of the people here at cfc are at least tolerant of others' beliefs. Few of us would accuse you of not being enlightened because you are religious.

Rather, few of us would accuse anyone of that based solely on the fact that they were religious.

I do think that whether there would be more or less war without religion can be agrued 'til the cows come home. I'm on the fence there. Would probably be similar, like you said, and we'd just find other reasons to kill each other.

But would there be the fanatacism? Maybe. But you must admit that the promise of an afterlife makes giving this one up in a fight that much easier.

There's always duty and honor to die for, flag and country, but I'm betting that without religion there would be less fanatacism.

 

[Furry Spatula]

i like that post napoleon526.

I am a Catholic, not as devote as i feel i should be and im trying to change that, yet i am planning on going into Engineering and such. I believe that God made the universe and that Jesus died for the sins that i commited, am commiting, and will commit.

I have been exposed to the 2 many theories of how the universe was made, Creation by a God, or the big bang. Now i have thought over this many times and i have come to the conclusion that the big bang has one big flaw in it. Apparently there was enough mass in the universe for it to collapse on itself, but where did this mass come from, it somehow must have been formed, but the law of conservation of mass states that mass can neither be created or lost, only have its form change. And in our view of the world, everything has a beggining and an end, nothing physical is infinite. There must have been a beggining to all, and what explains that best is the presence of an omnipotent being. This being that did exist for ever and will continue existing for ever, but gave all mass, life, energy etc a starting point.

And about these religious wars. No where does it say in the Bible, though shalt kill thy brother. wars such as the Crusades were started because people misinterpreted the holy books or just had a convoluted idea of what the world should be like. The problems with the Church in the middle ages was simply caused because power corrupted, it isn't religions fault. Taking a look at the Irish problem, that is not a religious war. It may be under the mask of religion but it is not religious at all. Both parties are Christians yet in different denominations, I am a Catholic and i have many Protestant friends, Frankly i could care less what denomination you belong too. It is conflicts like those in Ireland that give religion a bad name.

I have studied what some athiests have said. One thing that has come up many many times ppl use science to disprove religion. However you cannot do that, the supernatural is something that can be measured or observed. But since religion and science are somewhat in different areas you can be scientific and religious.

Now more reasons why I'm religious. One reason that i believe God doesn't make it evident to all that He does exist and why we need faith is because we were made to love Him. If God made us love him then his goal wouldn't be achieved. If there was definate proof that God existed then there would be no choice for us as if you do know God exists, for a certanty, there would be no reason you would believe otherwise. Therfore if we had no choise to but to love Him the act of making us to love Him would be useless. Why i have a real hard problem with us being finite came to me one night durring the last summer. I went to bed around 2AM and i was starring at my ceiling and i thought to my self ...

What if there is no God? What then? Ok, so i die, then what happens, I dont regret anything i did or didn't do, but i dont see darkness or nothingness. I dont see anything either, I just dont exist.

Frankly that is a scary thought. I find it very uncomforting. But if we continue of with what happens if there is no God, then why dont i just kill myself, i mean it wont matter in the end, I wont be able to say ahhh damn no i cant do that, I just wont exist. There is no point to life, some people ask what the meaning of life is, but if there is no God then there is no meaning. So what if you become famous, so what if you discover the cure to aids, You'll be dead, you wont exist anymore at all, you wont have a conciousness. But what happens, some peoples live are saved from your vaccene, who gives a rip? Your dead now, you cant enjoy it, when you die you cannot have any sense of satisfaction. So where do our morals come from? If we have a sense of right and wrong were did it come from? I chalange someone to come up with a reason why it is wrong to kill a little girl without using religion. If you say its because it hurts her, you can just reply so what thats not me its hurting, and in the end it doesn't matter, the reason i wont do it is because i can get caught, but thats not why its wrong. What is wrong with stealing from someone? All major Crimes we have today cannot be explained as to why they are wrong. It was just decided they are wrong. We did this in a class of mine before and we spent one hour and found out that you cannot do it without bringing in a higher authority figure.

Sparrowhawk, you said that religious people use religion as a safety blanket because we want answers. If i want an answer to how the universe was created i still dont have it, i know who created it but not how. I dont know how God could have existed for ever and how i will exist from my birthdate on for ever, i will never not exist anymore. The reason why people dont belive in religion is because they have questions about it that cannot be answered, or they do not want restrictions on them. But to be religious you need faith, that means that you dont know the answers yet you will believe anyways.

Whew well my rambling is over, thnx for reading. Good topic by the way

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

Originally posted by CornMaster
The way I see it is the Religion is just a form of Oppression.

It attempts to control the masses.

Do this or you will burn in Hell.

If you don't believe in Hell, then what is stopping you?

If you remove this fear....more people would probably commit violent crimes.

However, Religion is also holding mankind back. Religion has started MANY wars that has probably killed more people than it has saved. I would say that Religion wars account for more wars the territory wars would. Much more.

But Religions people also try and stop/slow science and research. It's against my religion to exploit animals....well then why do you have 3 pets, and eat meat daily?

Many religious people are hippocrits.....or have distorted their religious believes sooooooo much that they do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want, and justify it by saying that God doesn't mind because they have been baptized....or saved. Bull-plop. If your God allows you to do this....then I don't want that God.

So essentially I've come to believe in Science over Religion. We are going to shape our future. Not God. And we shouldn't let ancient superstitions hold back mankind!

Thank You! Finally the truth about religion comes out.

 

[amadeus]

I voted Religion. Religion has been the base of all of humanity, and science has only stemmed from it. Just my opinion.

Also, I believe in a good God, not a vengeful God. I see that all people need to accept the fact that there is a higher authority than themselves, whether it is theological or not.

It's all or nothing, at least s I understand.

If a baby that's six months old dies, does he go to Hell because he hasn't accepted Jesus Christ? That'd be ridiculous.

Of course, if all sins are forgiven, and having an "alternative" God is a sin, doesn't that ensure the person a "seat" in Heaven? I'd never understood the lines drawn by the "traditional" clergy, so I'd decided to think on my own.

 

[prefect42]

Nice to see you Kilgore (I assume you're the same one I know and love)

Science proves nothing but that Religion is completely necessary. Knowing about subatomic particles only deepens my appreciation for the God that created them, and his love of infinite complexity and beauty.