science!

blue_7

Warlord
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
118
hey i have a question. i heard that in a normal game you should have a BPT of about 100 by 1AD. i can never get up to 100 BPT the most i have ever had was around 70 and i had an amazing start. i always build librabries, everytime i get a scientist i have him build an academy, and i cottage alot!!!. so what am i missing. do they mean 100 BPT by 1AD with 100% science.

on a normal game i usally play standard noble pangea. my BPT by...
1AD-60-70:science:
500AD-200:science:
1000AD-350:science:
1500AD-500:science:
1500+-500-4000:science:

got any advice?
 
could you post a save, that would help us see what kind of things you've built, units, building improvements etc, as well as your choices on city placement
 
yep. this is my most recent game. i was going for a religious victory but it pisses me of cause sueliman(or however you spell his name) wont vote for me, if he did i would win. so i gave up. my science is really really bad, even bad for me. i have good land lots of resources. im really ahead of AI. i think i did good city placement.
 

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There are a number of things wrong with this save, but I'll just focus on the main things so you can take these ones as the biggest way to improve your game.

#1: Workers. They are all just sitting in your capital and you have a million unimproved tiles in your empire. Which brings up point 2..
#2: Tile improvements. As a financial leader, put cottages in absolutely every non-resource flatland tile unless you are making a production city.. in which case it'll be farms and workshops. For hills just mine everything until you can understand when to use windmills.
#3: City placement. In general found a city on the coast when possible, and found a city on a river if possible. For instance your southern city should have been three tiles west to grab the fish/quarry/copper for a production city. Vilcas (please cottage this city!) should have been on the flood plains two tiles southeast to grab the fish, plus river and coast bonuses. The southwestern city should have been in the very corner on the desert to grab the corn, crab, and sheep for a nice great person farm. And also, I would have had at least double the amount of cities within that same amount of space. Tile overlap and sharing is very useful but a somewhat more advanced concept.

Good luck on getting to that next level! :)
 
if you can tell me the other things i missed that would be great.

-actually with the workers i had no use for them. i was working all improved tiles. normally the way i play is i improve a tile when my city grows to work it. so if a city isnt working it i dont bother it. that way i dont have to waste the turns to change it if i want to. but i can see your logic of improving every tile so i will try and do that.

-i usally always build cottages. but i notice that some of my cities didnt have enough food to at least reach a decent pop so i irrigated a lil bit. so my question here is should i have a small er city and build cottages or build farms on a few tiles to get it bigger.

-im struggling with city placement alot. for most of my games i would spread them out a lot more than this game. this game i was actually trying to overlap my cities. i used to make it so there was no overlapping at all. but i realized that just stupid cause having the full 21 tiles is only beneficial in late game. i thought my 2 northern cities were well placed because i was trying to cut off Mali and i got a lot of resources and they were on rivers. the southerns cities weren't the most thought out i admit. but the city on the flood plains was my GP city that's why i was irrigating it. i asked this question to someone else before and didn't get the best answer, should i cottage flood plains or irrigate.

what about buildings. almost all my cities have libraries and i was going to start on universities. i had my GP city making scientist so i can create academies. also does building markets and banks help with science
 
also does building markets and banks help with science

indirectly especially in commerce cities because they will allow you to raise your science slider as your deficit starts to shrink. Same thing like how courthouses work, except opposite and not quite as effective.

I tend to build market grocer and bank in all commerce cities. By mid-late game you can get slider to 70-80% even with early rex or conquest.
 
The two northern cities are good. In order to block, you want them to take up as much space as possible, and you're right that they have good land, too. You can settle a city for overlap later.

Your city placement crime was ignoring all three seafood resources. One food resource is all you need for a decent city because that's enough to whip for production and run specialists. If it has a few more mediocre tiles, like coast, that's even better. The point of overlapping is to work as many tiles as possible, so really the first thing you want is to have as many tiles as possible within the fat crosses of your cities. Getting enough citizens to work all those tiles is second priority, and that's where overlap comes in. So spreading out to get those seafood resources is a good thing.

Right now, the thing you need to do to work more tiles is to fix your happiness problems. Did you recently switch out of hereditary rule? That may have been premature since you don't have many towns. The best you can do now is to get a fishing boat onto those whales, trade for wine, and cash-rush markets for four happiness.

You could specialize your cities more. Your specialist farm is the right idea, but that usually works better with a few great food tiles, instead of many floodplains. It takes too much population to work all the floodplains and run specialists, which is a problem when you're limited by happiness or health, and the floodplains make the health even worse. Floodplains generally get cottaged, and a better location for your specialist farm would have been the crab+corn+sheep location in the southwest. That city could run 4 specialists at size 7, and more once you get irrigation down there.

For more specialization, you need one more cottages in general, but one city should have no cottages and specialize in production. Build the heroic epic there (one of your priorities while hunting barbarians should be to get a unit to 10 exp so you can build the HE).

Markets and banks don't directly help with science, but they do increase your gold income which allows you to increase the science slider. If you are already running high science, then the banks don't help much. But do build a bank in your shrine city because the shrine gives gold which isn't affected by the slider. And you want markets for the happiness and gold is also useful for rush-buying and upgrading, so you should build banks eventually.

You're doing well versus the AI in your current game, and you're already beyond the typical newbie advice, which is to build more workers. Though you need to keep them busy building improvements before the cities grow, and changing existing improvements to fit your current needs. OK, I hope that helps.
 
If you want the most BPT by 1 ad you're going to want to get as many cities as possible and have them build wealth. However at lower levels, the AI won't have researched currency by then so the tech rate will be a lot slower. Don't be afraid to let your research get down to 0% as long as you can build enough cottages to recover.
 
ok just for reference because i was starting to forgot the layout of the game i took screenshots.

between my 2 northern cities where would you prob put another city to overlap the tiles. would you have changed the positions of my northern cities.

most of my sea food was in the south west portion of my land when i built ollantaytambo i didn't know there was crabs. with that city was the placement good or would you have chosen a different spot. the whales don't provide much food at all so i didn't see it as much of an importance to try and get them. but i could be wrong. with victibamba(or however you spell it) i was debating for a long time to build it 2W of to get the fish but i thought it would create to much overlapping with ollantaytambo. it was mostly to take up space and was never supposed to be a significant city. vilcas from the start was my GP city because it had the flood plains but i guess using floodplains as a GP city is a bad idea. i was thinking about building another city during the game 2S 2E of vilcas to get the fish and that move vilcas 1N or something but choose not to, once again because of overlapping. humanga and victos was built just to take up space, there wasnt much resources out there.

my plan was to make tiwanku and micchu picchu commerce cities my capital and ollantaytambo was my production cities and vilcas was my GP city.

i just recently switched to universal suffrage to get the civics bonus from fred to have him vote for me. i originally was hereditary rule. i was going for a quick diplomatic victory but once i got freddy to like me enough sueilaman decided he like mali more.

im really hesitant of overlapping cities because im afraid im going to overlap to much. could someone post a save to show me how much overlapping should be done.
 

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The advice I gave on your southern cities before was good, so maybe check that out again. Working whales is usually a good idea but on this map it's in an awkward spot as you'd have to put a city on the copper which is not worth it. But definitely put a fishing boats on it to get the happiness bonus.

The secret to city placement is this. In the early game, city placement should be about utilizing every resource and blocking the AI, preferably both. The most important resources are food for growing and working more tiles, and copper/iron/horse for military.

Once you have all resources worked and you cannot expand anymore outwards, you should start thinking about overlapping your existing cities. This may not be possible until you have buildings like courthouses to help your struggling economy. If you play the early game right it is not unlikely that your science slider can only support 10-20% because of number of cities plus military. To keep up in tech either be a warmonger for the gold or a tech trader if you're peaceful. Once your economy gets back on track in the early middle ages you'll be unstoppable and it'll be time to build/conquer more cities.

As for specific advice, honestly your northern cities are in good spots. But turn Macchu Picchu into a production site with workshops and farms to go along with those hills. The south is where you messed up, remember that a city on the coast can feed itself, especially with seafood. And with a financial leader it will pay for itself too.
 
I'm posting the save of a game I had with Elizabeth to give you an idea of the kind of city placement that works. This is probably the best use of overlap I've ever done. Everything south of and including the Reading city line I built, while north of that I captured from the AI and renamed them British. Compare my placement with the AIs and you can see the kind of advantage you can get.

Some notes:

York: Moai/Ironworks. Funnily enough I put Broadway/Statue of Liberty here like it was New York.
Oxford: Wall Street/Oxford University. Amazing site!
Canterbury: Heroic Epic/West Point.
Nottingham: Globe Theater/National Epic. Obviously the GP Farm.

Even a city in a seemingly crap location in the ice like Leeds can do well.
 

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ok thank you so much:). now i see what you mean by overlapping. i can see how you built your core cities where the food was while expanding north. mainly on that central river. and than you backed tracked and built cities to fill in the unused tiles.

so basically the problem with my games is not the actually cities and libraries and all that. its the amount of cities which makes sense. lol this game never ceases to amaze me with how different it is from civ3. so many new concepts:crazyeye:.
 
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