Science

[jma22tb]

I have been away from Civ 5 for a while and have come back full time so I want to know what's new and different with BNW.

I played and got a Culture Victory and noticed that going Tall seems to be pretty strong for Science. Are Wide civs still strong for Science or is Tall better now?

I'm thinking that it's best to start tall and start expanding in the late game or puppeting a weak rival with a better tech military

 

[Ahriman]

Tech costs now increase 5% for each additional city you found, so I would say that generally speaking tall is better for a science victory. A civ like Babylon or Korea is fantastic, especially if you start putting academies down around the city with the National College.

The tech penalty includes puppets, so getting puppets will really hurt your science victory. Better not to take cities unless you really want them.

 

[jma22tb]

Ya for both Culture and Science it seems like Tall is the best way to go.

I did Babylon and stuck to Tradition and was so far out in front with Science with Academies throughout the game it was crazy.

There is something to be said though about city-states b/c even though my actual output was much higher, Greece caught up to me b/c they had all the city-states in their pocket with that Patronage policy. It makes a huge difference, as well as all that happiness they used to go to war.

I still won though, b/c I ended up getting him to take on Siam and sent Siam a bunch of naval units to obliterate his doom squad army as it was crossing the ocean hahaha

 

[Ahriman]

I find the patronage policy gives at best a pretty small city state boost.

Babylon I think borders on broken, mostly because of how powerful the CEP academy is, at 8 science from the beginning. I think it needs to start with a smaller science boost and have it go up with techs. For most civs this wouldn't be an issue because you can't get many scientists until Education tech, but Bablyon starts with its free one from Writing. Ancient era free 8 science is a huge tech advantage.

 

[jma22tb]

Ya its small by itself, but if they have 12 or more city state alliances that are all tall it adds up.

I agree. I had Babylon doing science specialization between Wonders and had about 6 academies it was pretty nuts. I'd think 4 then 6 then 8 would make more sense for science output.

Also brings up a point with the AI flavors. If science is best achieved through tall, then settler spam is gonna shoot themselves in the foot.

Coalition = wide religious for influence and gold
Expansionist > Knowledge = tall for science and Nat'l Wonders
Diplomat = tall for culture and tourism
Conqueror = tall w/ emphasis on happiness religion to save up for conquest

EDIT: those were just off the top of my head. Obviously flavors are really complicated and require a lot of testing, but I think in general a military strategy depends on your ability to handle happiness and maintain a science advantage.

 

[Ahriman]

agree. I had Babylon doing science specialization between Wonders and had about 6 academies it was pretty nuts. I'd think 4 then 6 then 8 would make more sense for science output.

Also brings up a point with the AI flavors. If science is best achieved through tall, then settler spam is gonna shoot themselves in the foot.

Agreed, I've made this point in the leaders thread.

 

[Tomice]

Is the 5% science always true? I've seen different values at the tooltip, 2 and 3% respectively, but I didn't pay much attention yet.

 

[Ahriman]

Is the 5% science always true? I've seen different values at the tooltip, 2 and 3% respectively, but I didn't pay much attention yet.

It varies by map size. Larger map -> smaller penalty.

 

[Tomice]

Ok, that explains it. I tend to play on large, but I experimented with huge maps as well.

Apart from science, policy cost, happiness limitations and diplomacy - are there any other drawbacks from additional cities?

 

[Ahriman]

Apart from science, policy cost, happiness limitations and diplomacy - are there any other drawbacks from additional cities?

National wonder requirements become harder to meet and their costs go up. I think that's about it.

 

[Tomice]

National wonder requirements become harder to meet and their costs go up. I think that's about it.

Thx, forgot that one.

Am I right that for both techs and social policies the increase in cost per new city is linear? Meaning that -in theory- a new city would not hurt your rate of generating techs or SP's, if it produced enough science/culture from its foundation on?

In other words: If I don't want additional cities to hurt my generation of SP's, would it be enough to just rush-buy a monument and an amphitheater in every new city?


(I know science is different because you need population which can't be generated fast, but let's forget about this for a second)

 

[Ahriman]

Yes. Each new city increases the costs of techs by 5%. So if a tech normally costs 500 beakers, but I have 3 extra cities, then it will cost 575 beakers. If I build a 4th extra city, then that tech will go up to 600 beakers. The 4th city will increase net access to tech if it increases your research output by [(600-575)/(575)] = 4.34% - and so long as you have sufficient happiness that the new city does not affect the population growth of any of your existing cities. If I built a 5th extra city, the cost of the tech goes up to 625, so the new city must increase my science output by at least 4.17% (=25/600) to increase your rate of tech progress.

Each new city increases the cost of new policies by 15%, or 10% if you have the social policy in the Liberty tree (I forget the name - Representation??).

 

[Tomice]

Thx! It's good to have the exact numbers.

So, to sum it up, it should be relatively easy to maintain a good rate of tech research even with a large empire, while social policy generation isn't that forgiving.

Then again, it's very easy to rush a few culture buildings in each new city. If I understand it right, as long as our average culture output in the old cities isn't very high, we'll have relatively small problems keeping SP generation up. If we however have very culture-focused core cities and add another one, it will be rather crippling.

Regarding tech pace, it seems like a new city should quickly and easily become beneficial, especially if we rush a library and food buildings (granary, aqueduct, hospital,...) which we'll need anyway to get the city going.

 

[Ahriman]

So, to sum it up, it should be relatively easy to maintain a good rate of tech research even with a large empire,

Well, sortof.

Suppose you have 4 existing cities of size 15, with libraries and universities.
The capital also has an academy improvement and the national college.
The non-capital cities will be providing 30 science, and the capital will be providing ~56 science, for a total of 145 science.

Suppose you found a new city. Not until the new city is size 7 (or 5 with a library) will it start contributing to rather than detracting from your discovery rate, and that is assuming you have enough happiness for the new city. If you have public schools in the original cities, the new city has to be even bigger. New cities also undermine the science bonuses you get from city states under Scholasticism, and the value of great scientists (because a fixed beaker bonus gives you a smaller contribution towards your tech costs).

Rushing granaries and libraries helps - but of course those things have an opportunity cost, if the gold could have been used to rush a hospital or public school or similar in your existing cities.

But yes, the main constraint on expansion is still happiness.

The one other thing worth noting is: puppets have -75% science penalties. So taking on a new puppet is almost certain to decrease your tech pace.

 

[jma22tb]

I think it's best to stick to 4 or 5 cities for a Science Victory. You might produce less science per turn than your rivals, but you'll get more techs b/c they have too many cities and require too much science per policy to keep up with you.

If you go wide, you're gonna have to do espionage to keep up IMO