Scoring Civilizations

Lily_Lancer

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Just some personal opinion on scoring civilizations, since there're so many ranking threads here but only few provides a reasonable ranking.



Full score:100(Just a scaler)
start from 0 as a blank civ.

Sumeria with Beard: 120
Aztec: 101
Australia: 81
Sumeria :80
Greek (Gorgo): 75
Scythia:70
Nubia:66
Greek (Pericles): 63
Indonesia:60
Macedon:60
Korea:59
Rome:59
Persia:59
China: 57
Mongol:50
Mapuche:50
India (Chandra): 46
Germany: 46
Arabia: 46
Russia:45
Brazil: 42
England: 37
Netherlands: 36
France: 35
Norway:33
India (Ghandi): 32
Cree: 31
Scotland:31
Zulu:31
Japan:29
America: 28
Spain:15
Poland:13
Kongo:8
Georgia: 7
Khmer:6
Egypt: -23

avg. score=43.3
median score=45.5


Aztec:
+1 attack for each luxury: +11
+8 strength, +25 cost warrior: +5
Initial Eagle Warrior instead of Normal Warrior: +9
Can transform defeated units to workers: +40
Workers can build districts: +35
Unique Arena: +1

Overall score:101/100

Arabia:
Automatic last prophet : +17
Foreign transformed City grant +1 Science: +2
-90% religious building cost for Arabic Religion: +4 (You need to unlock it(1 apostle), and build holy-site, and shrines and temples, convert to Arabic Religion... )
+10% Science/Culture for Arabic Religious building: +2
Mumluk requires no iron:+6
Mumluk automatic heal: +10
Madrassa early unlock: +1 (Not really always an early unlock due to Theology not being a favorable civic)
Madrassa +1 Extra Science:+2
Madrassa +Faith: +2 (In Vanilla it is rated a lot higher since in vanilla city-state science bonus count as Madrassa faith too, but in RF, no)

Overall Score:46/100
 
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Brazil:
+1 Enterainment, half cost ED/water park: +7
Can construct Carnival: +4
20% GPP return: +6
Rainforest +1 Appeal and adjcancy: +7
Minas Geras early unlock:+5
Minas Geras requires no resource: +2
+10 Strength Battleship: +7
Rainforest start: +4

Overall Score: 42/100

China:
Worker +1 Charge:+25
Can speed up early wonder: +19
+10% Eureka/Inspiration: +7 (How careless I am )
Great Wall: +3
Crouching Tiger: +3

Overall Score: 57/100
 
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Australia:
+100% prod when liberation or being declared: +48
Appeal adjcancy bonus: +12
+2 Strength, +5/10 Strength Infantry: +4
Outback Station: +5 (Unlock too late)
Pasture provide culture bomb: +5
+3 Housing for coastal city: +5
starting bias (pasture): +3
Overall Score:81/100

Cree:
+1 Trader and Trade Route after Pottery: +10
Trader provide tile: +8
Trade route yield bonus: +4 (since it can have 2 early trade routes instead of 1)
Mekewap: +9
Scout +10 Strength: +4
Scout additional promotion: +2
Scout extra cost: -6
Alliance shard vision: 0

Overall score:31/100
 
You severely underestimate the Cree. So much so, that I have to wonder if you actually play the game. I mean, seriously...allied shared vision 0? Mekewap only 9? Totally clueless.
 
Sumeria
Warcart +85
Ziggurat + 10
Epic Quests +3
Beard +2
100/100

England
Royal Navy Dockyard +2
Pax Britannia +7
British Musuem +5
Redcoat +4
Firaxis will nerf England for some reason-100
-86/100

Rome
Free Monuments +35
Legion +5 strength +10
Legions don't need Iron +20
Legions can remove resources +20
Legions are more expensive -2
Bath +2
Roads Lead to Rome +4
89/100

Korea
Seowon +69
Governor Bonus +4
Hwacha +1
Hill Bias +13
87/100

Japan
Adjacency from all districts +8
+Strength on Coast +1
Half Price Holy Site,and Theater District +8
Half Price Encampment +21

38/100

Norway
+Melee Boat Production +14
Enter seas before cartography +1
15/100
 
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America:
P51-Mustang: 0
Film Studio: 0 (It requires world era modern, which never happens)
+1 Appeal for National Parked City: +1
Rough Rider: +1
+5 Combat on own Continent: +15
Convert Diplo Cards to Wild Card: +11
Score:28/100

Netherlands:
River Adjcancy bonus: +12
Harbor Culture Bomb:+2 (Extra sea tiles don't worth a lot)
Polder: +3
Trade Route Loyalty/Culture Bonus: +2
+5 Strength Frigate: +10
Frigate +7 Strength when attacking districts: +7
Score:36/100
 
Egypt:
Chariot Archer :+13
Unable to build Chariot: -7
Unable to Upgrade Knight: -35
Trade Route Bonus: +3
District Production Bonus: +4
Floodplain placement: +1
Twice alliance point from trade: 0
Sphinx:+2
Starting Bias: -4
Overall Score: -23/100

England:
Redcoat: +6
Free land unit on settle/harbor on other continents: +18
Half prod harbor +loyalty :+6
Harbor +gold when built on other continents: +2
Harbor +naval movement +3
British Museum: +5
Sea Dog: +1
Starting Bias: -3

Score:37/100
 
@Pietato No, I suspect Lily_Lancer knows what he’s talking about. Actually, he’d mentioned a rating system in another thread. I’m very glad he’s willing to expand on it.

My only question on the Cree is this: if the scout is more expensive, why give it a -6. Wouldn’t you just not build it and give it a 0? I thought scouts weren’t all that useful for quick victories?

Or do you sometimes build scouts for some reason - eg to Garrison in cities for loyalty?
 
After R&F, Aztec and Sumeria may be no longer Tier 0 in PvE, no matter DV or SV.

I thought scouts weren’t all that useful for quick victories?

Scouts are very, very useful in the fastest DV or CV, just for its original function: exploring. And in R&F, they can also give you more era points to enter classic golden age.
 
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Just some personal opinion on scoring civilizations, since there're so many ranking threads here but only few provides a reasonable ranking.

Full score:100(Just a scaler)
start from 0 as a blank civ.

Aztec:
+1 attack for each luxury: +11
+8 strength, +25 cost warrior: +5
Initial Eagle Warrior instead of Normal Warrior: +9
Can transform defeated units to workers: +40
Workers can build districts: +35
Unique Arena: +1

Overall score:101/100

I don't exactly disagree, but the "tiers" are usually done because you often cannot exactly rate how strong an ability is. Especially because it is also dependent on map settings. So, if you use a point system, you would have to explain why you feel that +1 attack for each luxury should be valued as +11.
 
@Pietato No, I suspect Lily_Lancer knows what he’s talking about. Actually, he’d mentioned a rating system in another thread. I’m very glad he’s willing to expand on it.

My only question on the Cree is this: if the scout is more expensive, why give it a -6. Wouldn’t you just not build it and give it a 0? I thought scouts weren’t all that useful for quick victories?

Or do you sometimes build scouts for some reason - eg to Garrison in cities for loyalty?
Yes, scouts are important in early wars in R & F due to the garrison loyalty issue.
 
I'd be appreciated if you explains the scoring system in the first post (before actual scores) e.g. the limit in each category, unique breakdown. I don't mind overscoring because it's always a thing.
 
Well, someone should make a REAL elimination thread about it and explain the scores more in depth. This is just willy-nilly?
 
Elimination threads are the ultimate form of “willy nilly” as there is no way to enforce strict rating criteria. And even when criteria are announced, every effort to rank civ’s or their uniques based on the stated criteria always comes down to the subjective judgment of those who bother to post in that thread. Lily is an experienced player, so getting insight into his thinking on the subject should be very informative, but some (most?) will be unconvinced and the debates will never end (which is a great thing for a discussion forum).
 
Scouts are very, very useful in the fastest DV or CV, just for its original function: exploring. And in R&F, they can also give you more era points to enter classic golden age.

This is correct. In those games you foresee the map and prepare a wonderful path for the scout. The map is also good enough for fastest victory, which means it has more than usual ruins and CSs, making your prepared path more valuable. In these games, right, scouts are much more useful than in normal games which you cannot foresee anything and prepare wonderful scouting paths, instead of being killed by barbarians or moving into territory with nothing left and ruin your potential friendship (if you do not have enough gold to send them delegation at the first sight and they instantly become hostile due to difficulty adjustment).
 
This is correct. In those games you foresee the map and prepare a wonderful path for the scout. The map is also good enough for fastest victory, which means it has more than usual ruins and CSs, making your prepared path more valuable. In these games, right, scouts are much more useful than in normal games which you cannot foresee anything and prepare wonderful scouting paths, instead of being killed by barbarians or moving into territory with nothing left and ruin your potential friendship (if you do not have enough gold to send them delegation at the first sight and they instantly become hostile due to difficulty adjustment).

So basically your entire scoring system is based on pre-played optimal maps and fastest non-peaceful science victory? Because otherwise I feel like all these numbers don't make much sense.

Sumeria
Japan
Adjacency from all districts +8
+Strength on Coast +1
Half Price Holy Site,and Theater District +8
Half Price Encampment +21

38/100

If you want to have some fun with Japan, I'd suggest you read the thread in the strategy & tips forum about "district discount mechanism". Because if played "correctly", pretty much all districts are 50% cheaper with Japan.
 
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Elimination threads are the ultimate form of “willy nilly” as there is no way to enforce strict rating criteria. And even when criteria are announced, every effort to rank civ’s or their uniques based on the stated criteria always comes down to the subjective judgment of those who bother to post in that thread. Lily is an experienced player, so getting insight into his thinking on the subject should be very informative, but some (most?) will be unconvinced and the debates will never end (which is a great thing for a discussion forum).

I think some readers just want to know Lily’s rationale for his scoring, not that he arbitrarily scored civs based on personal preferences. Those of us familar with Lily know he plays the game in a unique way, so it is helpful for us to understand his scoring rationale.

And yes, I know I will disagree immensely with Lily, but that is because I play the game much differently. Nevertheless, I enjoy reading Lily’s input. We can all learn from each other!
 
Uh? Get all the coastal goody huts + 9000 :D

Originally, I was going to give Gilgamesh's beard +9000 but I tried to be serious.

If you want to have some fun with Japan, I'd suggest you read the thread in the strategy & tips forum about "district discount mechanism". Because if played "correctly", pretty much all districts are 50% cheaper with Japan.

Oh, I guess that makes it another +12 (Sorry, I'm just making stuff up now). But some may already disagree with the value given to the encampment already. It's the bulk of the bonus due to ease of great generals.

But if we go by this system, isn't anything > 0 a good thing if 0 is supposed to be neutral? It's a better sense to grade on a curve?

I did this recently though , but it may even be more arbitrary as I did it in a few minutes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GlhtRB4YLM-0TnDyCrr1sYbSx0dKQmY9RJHy0FxWQXw/edit?usp=sharing
 
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