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Scoring Civilizations

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, May 17, 2018.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Sumeria:
    WarCart:
    +2 Strength Chariot: +6
    +1 Movement Chariot: +9
    -10 cost Chariot: +7
    Chariot requires no tech: +14
    Chariot pierces anti-cav: +11
    Zigguraut :+21
    Gain tribal villiage bonus on barb camp: +7
    Levy unit pay half cost(combine with T2 building): +5
    Mass Alliance Bonus:0 (The bug of others fighting with barb is fixed I think)
    Beard: *1.5 (so if Cleopetra has beard her point will be even lower :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:)
    Score: 80/100(without beard) 120/100 (with beard)

    Rome:
    Free Monument, but only on self-settled cities.( In fact worse than England bonus, but do not require "other continent"):+18
    Free road and trading post and domestic trading post gold: +7
    +5 strength swordman with no resource requirement: +12
    swordman +20 prod but can fix pillage and chop once: +16
    Bath: +6
    Score: 59/100
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
    Archon_Wing and acluewithout like this.
  2. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Compard to swordman. Yes, a bunch of Immortal is better than a bunch of swordman, and can be upgraded to from warriors, that's why they're not too bad.

    But let's recall the major usage of swordman-- Upgrade 2~3 , Rush at T35 to kill down enemy cities before they're walled. Since the major advantage of swordman is that they can be upgraded to so that they come earlier than horseman, just before enemy cities get walled.

    In fact we rarely use "a bunch of swordman" to do anything. Since we have better options "a bunch of horseman", or "a bunch of Knight". So the comparison between "a bunch of swordman" to anything becomes meaningless.
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Location:
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    Russia:
    Extra Territory:+17
    Trade Route Bonus: +6
    Lavra: +10
    Extra Faith and Prod from Tundra:+10
    Cossack:+7
    Starting Bias:-5
    Score: 45/100

    Scottland:
    Double Happiness Science/Culture benefit: +8
    More GP point from Happiness: +6
    Highlander: +1
    War of Liberation Bonus: +12( a little bit late, and need to give away city, but very very strong when actually triggered) If always triggering it is +100.
    Golf Course: +4(too late, otherwise it will be given higher score)
    Score: 31/100
     
  4. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    Seems kind of high for Georgia: -50
     
  5. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Location:
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    Scythia:
    Double Light Cavalry & Saka:+38
    +5 Strength against wounded:+16
    heal when killing enemy:+5
    Starting Bias:+4
    Kurgan:0
    Saka Horse Archer: +7( a good substitution for horseman)
    Score: 70/100

    Spain:
    +4 vs other religion: +6
    Early fleet/armada: 0
    Cross-continent trade-rout bonus:+2 (high but situational)
    Mission:+2( too late)
    +1 Inquisitor charge:0
    Conquistador:+5
    Score: 15/100

    Zulu:
    Impi: +3 (125 prod 41 strength, not as good as a samurai actually )
    Earlier Corp/army: +2
    +5 Corp/army strength: +9
    Upgrade Corp/army when capture city: +12( shall be +25 if useful all game long, but it comes too late now).
    Ikanda:+3
    Garrison provide additional loyalty:+2
    Score: 31/100

    Scores may be adjusted.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  6. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

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    I still think it's arbitrary to score civilizations without exact victory types and map types. Besides, R&F is a new game, very different from Vanilla. For examples:
    • Based on Culture Victory, Kongo can be one of the best civilizations, very stable and fast - remember, great work slots are not only for relics, artifacts and sculptures, you can also fill it with books (great writings, which are easier to get a lot in R&F);
    • Based on Dominion Victory on Pangea, Chandragupta is far more stronger than your thought - with Magnus, bunches of 4 movement Varus can ruin everything in a flash; Scythia and Mongolia are much more powerful than Sumeria, because mass horsemen are enough to finish the game, so science is useless.
    • Based on Science Victory, the advantages of Korea and Japan are obvious - the adjacency bonus are too important due to the changes of Enlightenment policies. Their 1 city's science yield can be 2~3 times of other civ's, and cost less. Meiji Restoration is definitely the MVP ability. With it, after spring patch, someone can even land on Mars before A.D. - I don't think Aztec or Sumeria can achieve this in R&F, but counter examples are welcome. SV before Christ.jpg

    Whatever, still don't know how to save poor Cleopatra...:dunno:
     
    Pietato and liv like this.
  7. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    Did I miss this already - how this rating system works? I don't claim to know any better but some of this doesn't match up with my personal experience. R&F France for example. Their bonuses don't kick in until Renaissance but when they do you can snowball very easily. Just play a respectable game until that point and you are golden. Double-down on spies and you will be pulling 1k gold payouts almost every turn by the time you have 4 spies running. You just buy everything at that point and win.
     
  8. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    Scores may be adjusted.

    Zulu:
    Impi: +/- 0 (a half decent way to boost era score)
    Can build Knight corps @ Mercenaries civic: +75
    +5 Corp early in gamme @ mercenaries: +25
    Might not make it to mercenaries due to other civ's UU's: -30
    Upgrade Corp/army when capture city: +6
    Ikanda:+3
    Garrison provide additional loyalty:+11 (you're going to need it)

    Adjusted Score: 90/100
     
  9. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    Russia's lavra is signifficantly stronger than its extra territory IMO. If territory = 17 I would say Lavra is 30+
     
  10. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    If Indonesia gets +21 from being able to guarantee harvest pantheon, then Russia needs to be more than +10... Id say faith and production is +23...

    Basically Russia turns tundra tiles into plains with one extra faith... In a straight up race Russia will get the pantheon first (settle on tundra and work one tundra is +2... Once the city grows to size 2 it becomes +3)
     
  11. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    +1 faith per turn cannot guarantee you the panthenon, also Russia do not always start on Tundra.

    Furthermore, it is really unwise to put your first pop on 1 food tile.
     
  12. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    In that same line of argument, Indonesia may also not start near coast/lake? They both are start biases which may not work all the time, yes, but I do not think we have been deducting points for unlucky starts from other civs (you wouldnt deduct points from Scythia if she starts with no horses in sight, or Sumeria if he does not have river, or Brazil if he has no rainforest, etc.)

    In my experience, sheep tundra is so common (due to no other bonus resource, except deer and copper, can spawn on tundra) a 2f2p1f tile as your starting work tile is certainly not bad...
     
  13. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    What? You rate the coastal strength bonus higher than half-cost districts and double adjaceny bonuses...?

    Have you actually USED Japan?
     
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  14. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Thats what made me choked in my dinner. Although player experiences differ from one to another, I think bonus to district building is always stronger than a situational combat strength boost. This is something everyone agrees I guess?
     
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  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Situational combat bonuses are stronger in most cases. You don't always build certain districts and buildings (especially for non-campus bonuses, most of them do not actually have real use). On the other hand, Combat bonus in Civ6 is really important, making you snowball quicker.
     
  16. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    So you basically cluster 3 empty districts/city center to get +3 adjacency everywhere? & then use Enlightenment policies? Interesting. I have to try that.
     
  17. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    My opinion still hasn't changed since when you arrived at a score for Egypt in the corresponding thread. I'm not saying your scores do not make sense , the criterias seems discutable but at least though out , yet the modifiers seems more than a little bit 'eyebrow calculus' to me. So unless you can tell me WHY say aztec luxury bonus grants them a +11 and not say +1 or +456 , I can't reliably learn anything from your scoring , let alone re-use it.

    I'll give you this , they could be some kind of starting model for some kind of convoluted (pun intended) machine learning method that would have to adjust your score compared to some reality being a representation of games , but that's only thing that this read inspires me (and still a long way to go before any kind of usefull implementation could see the light) .
     
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  18. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    This is just...completely wrong, on all accounts.
     
  19. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    I don't think my scoring is accurate enough, but rather a tool to end those "civilization ranking" issues, especially given that still so many people trying to persuade me that Kongo is a medium, or even good Civ.

    Or at least making a better "civilization ranking" list, since I'm tired of being told "XXX Civ is very good" (That XXX can be Poland, Georgia, Japan, or all those civs which look good but very bad in real strength )
     
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  20. Ellerby

    Ellerby Chieftain

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    I have read many people claim that you are a great player, and have no reason to suspect otherwise. I am inclined to trust, somewhat, your ranking method.

    However what I, and many others, would be interested to see is how your scoring system works. You seem to be reticent or completely unwilling to share this information and one has to wonder why. Until it is presented and discussed it certainly does not end all of those "civilisation ranking" lists.

    Whilst I appreciate that you have a much better understanding of the game then myself and many others here, until you present your methodology, your scoring is essentially arbitrary. What's the meaningful difference between a score or +13 and +14 for example?
     
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