1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Scoring Civilizations

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, May 17, 2018.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    Those elimination threads are one reason that I write this. Since most things on them are incorrect and only few reflects the real strength. Some elimination threads even end up in ridiculous results like "Adam Smith being better than Linus Crassus".

    For Nubia, a large fraction of Nubian archer's strength come from the +50% production bonus on ranged units UA. This shall not be taken into account since it is calculated separately and shall not be double-counted. BTW when you sum up these two you'll get as much point as Sumeria Warcart.

    Without it the UU looks not that good. 70 Prod for 30 strength, compared with War Cart's 55 prod 30 strength and no tech requirement. Yes ranged attacks have no counterback, but they're 13 strength weaker in defense, making them actually easier to die.

    Another advantage of warcart is that they upgrade into knights. Nubian archers don't have a good upgrade.
     
    liv, acluewithout and Mr. Shadows like this.
  2. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Messages:
    645
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Incheon, R.O.K.
    @Lily_Lancer I'm surprised that you don't like crossbows. Pitati archers frequently have 4+ promotions (2x attack) by the time they upgrade. Is this because they're too slow? Even with a GG? Crossbows are capable of doing a lot of damage, but I realize you have specific criteria in mind. I'm also surprised that you didn't rate Rome's free monuments higher. It doesn't just save a ton of hammers, it provides a lot of culture starting from turn 1. That brings a lot of nice things including faster border expansion, better loyalty and the Coliseum. BTW I completely agree about the elimination threads. They're fun but popular opinion is not the way to measure strategy or tactics.
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    Usually fighting on open terrain doesn't last long (since AI don't have a lot of meaningful units), and most usual statement of war is siege. The speed of siege is the key of Civ6. Archery units gain -17 against cities, and another -50% against walls, so a crossbow actually attacks like a unit with 6 attack to a walled city, while a knight attacks as 48 strength.
     
    Mr. Shadows and acluewithout like this.
  4. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    11,854
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rural Vermont
    Not to mention the fact that plinking away at a walled city with ranged units just adds to your war weariness more quickly. The key is to assault with units that can bring the city down quickly, and not engage in drawn-out sieges where you slowly chip away at the defending city's defenses.
     
    Mr. Shadows and Trav'ling Canuck like this.
  5. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,971
    Gender:
    Male
    Exactly. I don't even have many disagreements tbh so it worked out in the end, plus we all know the beard rating is what really makes it. And despite my sarcasm, these observations do actually work in practice and lets me sort out what's hot and what's not. If I didn't, I'd still be trying to slow push swords and bombards in 100 turn wars instead of just picking up knights and fighting a 10 turn one.

    The list also makes me happy to know that my intuitions about Korea being too strong was a bit of a hyperbole was right too. But that's just me.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    3,376
    My guess is that how people rank Civs is strongly linked to how they play them. That's why @Lily_Lancer ’s rankings are so good - because it gives you more colour on how he plays, and hes a great player.

    I’m also always a fan of @Archon_Wing ’s posts, particularly ranking posts. I'm not all that interested in the actual rankings tbh, but the comments about how he plays them is just great.

    Keep up the good work guys!
     
  7. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,818
    Location:
    New Zealand
    He should only rate the civs he plays. He does not seem to understand the others.
     
  8. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    I play Nubia quite a bit so I'm probably biased... Double attack Xbows are awesome. Not everyone is an every-era War Monger. If your sole purpose in a game is domination, then sure - War Cart upgrades to Knights would be more efficient than Pitati upgrades to Xbow. But if you plan on taking advantage of Classical wars without penalty followed by peaceful play for the remainder of the game, then I'd rather have double-shot Xbows than knights. It's not like I won't be building a few chariots and upgrading them to knights anyway. And if I do find myself in a medieval war, a double-shot Xbow in range of a siege can keep knights and catapults clear of a Deity AI rush-buying units ever turn.

    Edit: And Xbows upgrade to field cannons. Corp Field Cannons with Double-Attack:crazyeye: . Knights take the Renaissance and half of Industrial off with barb duty.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  9. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,971
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, that's the thing. When you try scoring stuff like this, personal preference or fun isn't part of it.

    Of course, that being said, I think it's important to state what kind of standard and goal one is setting. Is it the fastest possible win on deity? On a GOTM map? On a random map? On a small map? General performance gamewide, etc
     
    Boyan_Sun likes this.
  10. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    214
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Yep, good points. Each civilization is designed with a path of least resistance victory condition. You could even say they could have an era rating where the confluence of aspects in their design comes together or just simply becomes activated. I applaud @Lily_Lancer for their effort to bring objectively but there will always be subjective "wiggle room". There are just too many variables.

    It's my perception (I could very well be wrong) that majority of veteran players on this forum are domination focused players. I'm wondering if that has anything to do with multiplayer - because I do think that multiplayer would push me more towards domination simply because the tactical challenge would be worthy and it would be way more fun. In single player, I drift more towards the strategy challenge of science/culture because the AI is so tactically terrible that domination gets boring. In single player, I find that by focusing on Science, for instance, I have to handicap my military. When the inevitable war happens I'm actually tested because I've tried to run my military on a shoe-string budget.

    I think I'd start by asking what the Civ was designed to do given their bonuses, UUs and UBs. State the primary victory condition. Then consider how well those bonuses allow them to accomplish what the Civ was designed to do. So, how do you use Sumeria to it's true potential? Well, you utilize war carts to absurdity, upgrade them to knights and keep going at least through medieval and more. Ally with other warmongers and watch the world burn. Clearly a domination Civ. So How about Nubia? To me this is a very similar Civ to Sumeria early on but it's also much more open ended with bonus production to districts and a defensive oriented upgrade to it's UU.. to me Nubia is built to take out a neighbor and catch up on districts after the early war and push to peaceful play. What about.. Russia? I think Russia should be #1 in the game for culture victory based on their UB and leader bonuses. Their Cossack comes late but so what? Russia was designed for faith assisted Culture wins and it does that amazingly well.

    Lot's of variables. Hard to do objective apples to apples.
     
  11. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2016
    Messages:
    566
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes cause War Carts are arguably better (they definitely are for taking cities and upgrade directly to knights). It was extremely close and archers only won because there was a rush of Pitati supporters right at the end. The rankings here seem pretty valid and I definitely agree that Aztecs are the best though they seem to get constantly downvoted in other threads just because people don't use them effectively. I would probably have Egypt higher but I understand the big negative for lack of the crucial upgrade path. I do disagree with Macedon though - they are top 3 IMO and I would also have Mongolia higher. Both of those civs can win or at least control a huge portion of the map before Knights even arrive.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,971
    Gender:
    Male
    Well the thing is conquest has always been the strongest victory condition in civ, because it implies the others, especially given the snowball effect. Thus, the other victory conditions will always come down to Domination minus the time it takes to achieve the other victory. It's also why being good at science pretty much means you're good at everything too. Not all paths are equal.

    In previous games though, conquering as not as easy and in fact may have come with some opportunity costs. In Civ 4, for example, you could easily come on top in a war, but you'd have to work on quickly rebuilding your economy as it was often in tatters after the war and would have to catch up in some way or another. Cities that were captured had a mandatory revolt time which made them useless and would periodically refvolt if the culture was weak. But even in that game, war was still by and far the best solution to any problem. In Civ 6, your captured cities work just as well as you built them the moment you make peace and chances are you're already ahead at that moment without any need to rebuild. Loyalty has finally put some brakes on it, but it's still not enough.
     
  13. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    There's no "potential" for Civs, only their bonuses.
    It is their bonuses that decides how you play that Civ, how you're playing them never decides the value of their bonuses.
    For example, Sumeria is a better Civ than Nubia even if you don't do warmonger at all, since Ziggrauts are actually better than the district production bonus of Nubia in peaceful development. Also, Sumeria is a better Civ than Russia in culture victory, because Ziggrauts are better than the sum of all Russian bonuses in cultural victory. The point is that the Civs are not balanced, but highly inbalanced and one minor bonus of a Civ may overperform a major bonus of other Civ even in fields that seems like the other Civ having advantage on.
     
    Forster likes this.
  14. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,818
    Location:
    New Zealand
    That makes absolutely no sense.
     
  15. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    256
    Gender:
    Male
    It is R&F now, that theory is debatable in our side in deity difficulty. In fact, in general play, domination based other victory is not more effective than peaceful ones any more - because of Magnus, our main productions are from chopping, and it is one-time productions. If you chop units, your army will be extremely large and early so domination victory can be much faster, but if you want to win science or culture after conquest, productions already spent on army won't help, trees won't be back, so it will delay so much to your district/wonder constructions. But if you put these one-time productions to settlers and districts (with Magnus and Ancestral Hall), that really makes another type of snow ball effect. Districts are the keys to science victory and wonders are the keys to culture victory, not armies. Also, it's so effective for builders to chop/harvest than to build improvements, after all, districts don't need population to work, but you need to assign pop to work on the improvements, which in turn weakens the civilization based on improvements like Sumerian. Even now, too early war against AI is not very effective (except Persia), deity AI will have a lot of archers. It is better to wait until classical horseman or medieval knight, which can be strengthen by great generals.

    In addition, if playing peacefully for science/culture/religion victory, I bet Sumerian can not be better than Nubian in R&F, unless we forbid the production overflow exploit. Range units +50% production can be regarded as the early chop/harvest income +30~50% - when Magnus came out, the chopping production from 1 tree is more than 50, for Nubia it can be 50 * 200% - 35 = 65, which is 30% more, and an extra slinger (this trick is only for Nubia after spring patch). Remember that every charge of a builder in peaceful play is very precious, it's better to chop/harvest than to build a ziggurat, also the cities won't have too many pops for ziggurats when victory (too many pops, or "tall play", is very inefficient in Civ6).


    I will explain why Japan is very strong in R&F (if you don't forbid some exploits): yes, Japan really have huge bonus to campus production - remember Hojo's ability is not "half cost districts", but "+100% production for specific districts". Magnus and overflow exploits makes this ability much better than half cost UDs - 3 chops can make campus, theater and CH all done, even make easier to trigger the district discount. Then, with “free inquiry” dedication bonus for CHs and Eurekas, the science output of each city can be very explosive (also unique, for Japan only). Australia is also very strong for science victory, but its 100% production bonus cannot apply on chopping, and it is not reliable, depends on opponents. And, its adjacent bonuses are not stable, because most trees need to be chopped for production, so it often needs city parks, which costs builder's charges (but it can provide extra gold from neighborhood exploit later). For Netherlands, no bonus for district productions, and that yield bonus need rivers. So Japan is better - both district production bonus and district yield bonus, all very stable, no terrain conditions.

    In R&F, early wonders only cost 2-3 trees with overflow exploit and Magnus, which made it very easy to achieve the theater adjacency bonus. So theater is too strong under current version, not only provide high adjacency bonus culture, but also quicker to obtain great writers. These books not only can greatly accelerate the early civics, later also can bring you a lot of gold by selling them - or just win CV with their tourism bonus.
     
    Arent11 likes this.
  16. Arent11

    Arent11 King

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2016
    Messages:
    988
    Thanks for clarifying that. The civilopedia says they would be "half cost", so if it's really +100% production that is a big difference.
     
  17. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,072
    I also did not know that :eek: If I had known I'd be doing the "Limes" trick with Japan all day... chop theatre into CH etc.
    When you pair this with district discount bonuses (from having many districts) I see why it gets scary... holy site is a +100% district thing so build to 1 turn (finishes fast anyway)... chop that into discount campuses and then run the dark age card...
     
    Arent11 likes this.
  18. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    I'd like to advise people not to verify games based on others' plays, unless the author himself does support the idea.
    I myself see many people comment on my play as evidence for how a certain type of play can actually make use, but the "type" he is saying is actually not my type (or an obsoleted one), just some random useless strategies.
    There may be some good players in the Chinese forum, but they never speak for themselves.

    Then other guy who does not actually play but loves commenting just copies their results and posts it here. Then, when you ask him "how to play", he show you the playstyle of himself, but linked with the best players' results( though they use different playstyles) instead of how himself plays.
    I can imagine that in Chinese forums he is also trying to argue that his playstyle being the best, but supported by high-level players like civtrader6's results.
    That shall not be moral I guess. At least he himself shall show how good he plays, then can the playstyle he claims be fairly evaluated.

    Also, some little points of mine.
    1: Ziggrauts are never for "tall" plays, instead it is designed to make small cities produce as much science/culture/tourism as possible, instead of producing only food/production for inefficient growth. It makes small cities most efficient.
    2: Magnus is best for Domination based victory, since you gain trees and builders from conquering. AIs receive bonus in city border growth so that conquered cities usually have more trees.
    3: If you want +100% overflow, Longships are much better choice than Nubian Archers.
    4: Please discuss on the newest version, where Magnus is +50%.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  19. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,971
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, I don't think that contradicts what I said too much though I should have probably said conquest (the route to domination) My point is that it's better to not be peaceful than not peaceful, and here it comes down to the breakpoint where you diverge to a non-domination victory. Not to mention the endless spawns where you may only have 1 spot to settle if even if you don't go to war. In all of these cases, it skews towards those with military advantage. Unfortunately, even the very fast peaceful victories I've seen seemed to have relied on a great deal of luck beyond the 3 theater strategy.

    I'm not in a spot to contest where non-domination victories can be faster, since it is possible that Domination Victory - Other victory = a negative amount in some games but I still think we're still revolving around this idea that conquest overrides all else, and more so in competitive situations (apparently not the Deity AI)

    Though I would also suggest this-- isn't most overflow from chopping units with a modifier? (Chop unit within 1 turn, to chop another unit and overflow it to buildings and whatever else you need?) You would end up with a lot of units no matter what you did. (Unless you're chopping settlers?)
     
  20. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2016
    Messages:
    151
    Gender:
    Male
    Why is Lavra only +10? That unique district single-handedly makes Russia one of the best choices for cultural or religious victories. it also enables them to secure a religion without much investment even if not going for a religious victory. I think its criminally underrated in these scores.
     
    Boyan_Sun likes this.

Share This Page