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Scoring Civilizations

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, May 17, 2018.

  1. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

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    I'm sorry I may have misunderstood you. It is true that domination victory will always be faster than any other victories on standard settings, no matter in which difficulties. My point is if we specify the victory type as science/culture/religious, just like GotM does, then a peaceful or semi-peaceful style can be faster. And it really need too much luck? Not really, see this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6otm35-after-action.630234/#post-15089124 . We all know GotM can not save/load, or play again. I still think that our thinking should not be limited in the past, for this DLC is really different.

    Well, almost. In fact, that "chop unit within 1 turn, maximum overflow to others" is often used in very early game with Agoge, then feudalism makes it expired. Limes-wall is the main trick for middle game before urbanization, then most chops are just direct until very late. That is because overflow exploit also need to consider costs and benefits - for example, Limes trick, only when chop bonus (include Magnus) > 40, that "1 turn maximum" can be better than chop directly(40 chop value * 2 - 40 previous spent on wall, vs 40), and when chop bonus > 80, full cost unit chop also can be better than chop directly(80 chop value * 2 - 80 full cost, vs 80 chop value). Generally speaking, the less item costs, the more you gain. So,
    • Magnus only stays 0~1 turn per city, but may chop 5+ tiles, so only one 1-turn-unit and one wall overflow can be applied in mid-game, then the left tiles can only choose to chop directly, or to chop full cost units to overflow;
    • Before spring patch, chop full cost units (most are chariots) was very common, but now Magnus was nerfed to 50%, so "chop full cost units" is limited to very late game, except Nubia, or coastal galleys;
    • Most cities are not coastal if we want maximum the tree tiles, and galleys expired too quick, that policy also expired too quick. Usually only 1~2 cities can enjoy that 100% overflow from galleys.
    (By the way, I noticed that there was some old posts mentioned balloon overflow in Vanilla. I have to say, this was really stupid, that I even doubt if he ever played this game. After all, no matter how to chop balloons in Vanilla, the cost cannot be recovered, even policy of accelerating balloons requires the communism civic. )
     
  2. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    That would be because lily does not know anything outside of a very small strategy.
     
  3. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    It would be more appropriate to say that he has a very refined and specific approach to the game. Your statement implies ignorance, which I would say is incorrect. He is one who studied and experimented with the system more than most, and is probably better than most as well. Does he have a different way of framing his end goals than most of us? Sure.
     
  4. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    No, ignorance is more accurate. He does not seem to know how things he does not use even function.
     
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  5. Arent11

    Arent11 King

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    The difference between civtrader & Lily is that civtrader is very good & very modest about it. If you are good, you don't need to boast. Simply because everyone can see that your suggestions, guides or walkthroughs work well.
    In Lilys case I have seen some very nice strategy suggestions, but also quite a bit of boasting. It is not very surprising that some people react harshly to this. I myself try to ignore it, but I have to say that Lily makes it sometimes a bit difficult :)
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
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  6. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Well, sure, galleys expire early, they expire earlier than Nubian archers, of course an experienced player researchs Cartography/Exploration earlier than Machinery/Feudalism. Perfect.:crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  7. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Lavras may seem good for beginners, in fact they end up granting you a lot of scouts instead of real bonuses, since it actually requires you to build a holy-site, a theatre square, and an amphitheatre to make use( You don't have a Kongo palace with 5 slots I guess), which is too late and inefficient in most situations. Only few situations this may be actually useful, so I give it something around +10, since the 1st author can still fill your palace.

    BTW, I'm serious and confident that Russia is worse than all Civs with a tourism UI in culture victory.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  8. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    I wouldn't say worse. I'd say they are designed to take out the competition when Cossacks are unlocked. Their science path should be zeroed in on Cavalary.
     
  9. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I'm playing a game as Russia now, and would somewhat agree with it granting way too many "scouts". Like, if they had a writing spot somewhere in the Lavra, or even if there was a tier-3 religious building that had a writing spot, then it would rank so much higher.

    I do think the fact that Russia tends to start in the arctic, and that it's really easy to go for Dance of the Aurora does mean that they have a ton of sources of +6 or higher cheap holy sites. But the downside is that they all take district slots, those cities are otherwise pretty underwhelming (being in the tundra), and to make full use, you're now probably also using the double holy site adjacency card too, they basically require a lot of infrastructure to get working to their max. They're a civ that would be awesome with just one more bonus - like, if they had Germany's free district, or Kongo's palace slots, then they'd kick ass.
     
  10. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    Apadana or Great Library for the extra GW slots. On Deity, this requires mostly peaceful play early, tech/civic beeline (heavy culture investment for Great Library), and chops. Easier said than done on Deity but it's achievable.
     
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, those also require some investment and having production to spare early. I know my game was helped by taking "Cathedrals" for my religion and being able to secure Medici to get the bank great work slots, and then popping every religious Great Artist, meaning I didn't even fill up my museums by the end of the game. Combined with using Jesuit Education to faith buy a lot of stuff, I ended up winning just a couple turns after reaching Computers. Basically, it takes a fairly decent investment to really make use of their bonuses.
     
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  12. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    This explanation makes sense, it appears I definitely overrated it from a culture standpoint- however you can sell all of the great works for a nice profit I'm no expert but it feels stronger than the extra land bonus which was scored a +17. I don't even play deity so perhaps that is my inexperience talking.
     
  13. Temppu

    Temppu Warlord

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    Lavra has great potential for a strong peaceful strategy: 3 Lavras to 2 half-priced Theaters, then Aurora Pantheon and Classical Golden Age to Faith-purchase expansion and early infra and Jesuit Education to purchase Amphtitheaters to accommodate Lavra GWs. Being slightly set back in Science early can be later compensated by Faith-purchasing Libraries.
     
  14. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Sounds good but actually not reasonable, given that you need too much faith, and 2:1 is not a very good conversion rate if you only have some flat faith bonus instead of Goddess of Harvest.
     
  15. Temppu

    Temppu Warlord

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    Ill just note that 3 Lavras alone on tundra with Aurora and +100% adj. card net you 3*6*2=36 Faith each turn, which is roughly the Faith of one Magnus chop with Goddess in the early game. Hard to say if Goddess would be stronger.
     
  16. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

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    The scoring is different in different play styles/strategies, and obviously Russia is one of the Tier 0 civilization for cultural victory if you play peacefully.

    What's more, peacefully play style was proven to be more efficient in R&F for science & culture victory, by many videos and reports. Even a non-expert player like me can easily win cultural victory within 130 turns of any map in deity difficulty, using Russia/France/China/Kongo/Japan. Don't say that we chose maps or too lucky, if we did, we can have won by about T80~90, that is a big difference. If anyone can achieve better results through warmonger, please share, I'll be grateful and try to learn - especially through the tourism UI.

    Still think it's better to choose Harvest. Aurora can be stronger only in a few turns after that 3 Lavras built, but Harvest can be used before it, then after several turns Harvest even becomes stronger and stronger while game is progressing. Russia has a much better chance of getting Harvest than most civilizations, and can easily get more trees than most civilizations if play peacefully.
     
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  17. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Harvest vs Aurora as Russia depends a lot on terrain. If you truly are stuck in the tundra, then I find there's less chopping, since I want to keep the trees there as much as possible (given there's nothing else to build on those tiles). Given that you get the aurora faith boosts really early, and the double holy site adjacency card comes early, Russia can really kill it with early faith. Of course, that also takes up a policy card slot so that does have to be factored in a little bit too.
     

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