Scout -> Archer upgrade (Ruins): no ignore terrain costs?

[Tids]

The Levy could be nerfed slightly, as I still reckon it is too 'on par' with the Pikemen. Maybe an attacking penalty or strength decrease, due to it still being quite strong with the nearby units boost. This would allow the scout to upgrade to levy without it being too overpowered and keep the movement bonus.
However this would mean a whole re-think of the levy unit - so it just depends if everyone thinks that the levy fits that particular niche perfectly.

EDIT: I think that the tech gap is too small to add another vanguard unit between Levy and Scout. Although it could match the spearmen as the levy matches the pike, if the scout is matched to the warrior

 

[kc_bandit]

What's wrong with just upgrading him to an Explorer with 3 movement and +1 sight, and better attack/defense numbers or something like that? Then he upgrades to a levy or something later on?

We would lose the archer possibility which is nice, but in terms of logic and the game making sense, an Explorer would seem to fit.

Or - just leave it alone. It's not a huge deal.

 

[Callonia]

How is scout - Archer gamebreaking?

At most you get to have like 1, 2 if you're really lucky.

Scout Archer is part of what makes my early game really really fun.

Even when I explore, and my scout gets upgraded to an archer, I keep on exploring anyways.

Out of 500+ hours of gameplay.. I've had a scout archer survive to endgame upgraded to mechanized infantry. With a host of archery skills on it XD

And then it got nuked while I was doing an invasion oh well. Clearly, scout-archer benefits the human player most but seriously. Overall its impact is small and it cannot be everywhere at once making mockery of heavy cost terrain weaving in and out slaying whole hordes at once.

I do know its possible to keep a city relatively secure with it present. But say, you have 3 cities under attack at same time, that lone scout archer only can be at one place at a time.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'd really like to add new types of ancient ruin rewards, but most of that code is in the game core only Firaxis has access to.

I build 2 scouts so they can support one another and the initial warrior. If one gets ruin-upgraded that's 1 scout, archer, and warrior, a great mix to clear barb camps. Regardless of your circumstances, I highly recommend teaming up early units against barbs. Barbarians are much tougher in VEM. Sending 1 unit to a camp usually doesn't cut it (unlike vanilla) unless you're lucky or the unit is experienced. The rewards are also higher, since we can attain 3 promotions from barbs, up from vanilla's 2 promos.

 

[Txurce]

Regardless of your circumstances, I highly recommend teaming up early units against barbs. Sending 1 unit to a camp just doesn't cut it like in vanilla, unless you're lucky or the unit is already experienced.

I often take the patient route of wounding a barb, retreating to heal, and repeat. It works - unless his friends show up, which is often - and of course that unit is no longer exploring. Having the patience to team them up is definitely worth it... and an argument for Thal's two-scout start.

 

[Zaldron]

I often take the patient route of wounding a barb, retreating to heal, and repeat. It works - unless his friends show up, which is often - and of course that unit is no longer exploring. Having the patience to team them up is definitely worth it... and an argument for Thal's two-scout start.

I've actually been experimenting with monolith->scout + liberty->free worker in a couple games recently. It's slightly delayed exploration but a jump on policies.

 

[Txurce]

I've actually been experimenting with monolith->scout + liberty->free worker in a couple games recently. It's slightly delayed exploration but a jump on policies.

That's interesting. Then there's Thal's approach - buy the monument.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think that's an interesting strategy to try, especially when there's no camp or mine luxuries near the capital. Plantation resources take long to unlock, and by that time, you can probably have the free worker out. The warrior can do the initial exploration. I'll try out your strat in my next game and see if there's way to enhance it, if necessary. I like having a wide variety of viable strategies available to every player.

 

[kc_bandit]

All of this interesting! It's great to hear the different viewpoints. I have really taken a liking to Isabella with her early gold bonuses. So I generally send two to three scouts and the warrior out for exploration and ruin collecting ONLY. I only fight barbs if I have to. Plus I want them all there when I get Honor up and running anyway. But the goal is to get out, meet everyone you can, find those Natural Wonders and meet the CS's first if at all possible. Buy the monument. Buy the workers and workboats, buy the granary, buy the Triremes, buy the warrior/archer to defend if necessary, et al, and spend your hammers on the Wonders. When done exploring (what can be done reasonably), you should be ready to start barb killing or possibly a rush.

Sell the luxuries, sell the horses and certainly buy the tiles needed to maximize growth and production. I always feel like a hammer is wasted on buildings or units if I could buy it now or in four turns rather than build it for eight turns.

Now, that is on a lower difficulty, and I doubt it would work very well against the Emperor and above difficulties.

I am not a great player, clearly as I just love the tall AND wide "strategy". VEM makes coastal cities so worthwhile and enjoyable as well! I love me some whales if I can find them.

 

[Txurce]

All of this interesting! It's great to hear the different viewpoints. I have really taken a liking to Isabella with her early gold bonuses. So I generally send two to three scouts and the warrior out for exploration and ruin collecting ONLY. I only fight barbs if I have to. Plus I want them all there when I get Honor up and running anyway. But the goal is to get out, meet everyone you can, find those Natural Wonders and meet the CS's first if at all possible.

I've been planning on playing with Spain since the starting scout was added, but only got one game in with v130 before finding the research bug. I think your opening strategy is very viable, regardless of whether you intend to rush (and pick up Honor) or not.

By the way, with regard to your earlier questions, I sell almost every city I take and don't want. My preference is to sell pairs, since the AI pays much more for a second adjacent city. You can expect wars from the buyer, so choose them carefully. Of course sometimes you want to sell them to someone from whom you can sell them again!

 

[EmperorFool]

How is scout - Archer gamebreaking? . . . Scout Archer is part of what makes my early game really really fun.

It's not game-breaking for me, but it decreases my fun which is why I play the game. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if you lost the promotion in Vanilla as well. The ignore-terrain Archer is really fun to play with. Having it taken away is worse than never having had it in the first place.

Even when I explore, and my scout gets upgraded to an archer, I keep on exploring anyways.

Well sure. It's not like I delete the unit in a huff or quit the game! It's simply not as fun as it used to be--that one tiny aspect of the game. And I'll admit that the Archer still proves useful, but not as useful as it was obviously because it's only worse without any advantages.

 

[Txurce]

[*]Ruins don't upgrade scouts.
This in June, but feedback protested the lack of a ruins upgrade.
.
[*]Ruins upgrade scouts to archers, ignore-terrain is silver.
This in September.
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I haven't seen a better option. I could start a poll between C and D?

Given that there were only 2 or 3 people complaining about the absence of the scout-archer, that we have been through this before, and there was no consensus now, why did you change the upgrade to a levy? In my opinion, this is the worst way to go. It's flat-out unrealistic - a unit from two eras in the future suddenly appears on the battlefield. From a gameplay perspective, I don't want a near-invulnerable unit, and I definitely don't want my early-rushed cities to have to deal with a unit that can shrug off archers.

 

[Seek]

I think I mentioned this the last time this discussion took place, but I'll just weigh in that I always loved the "Scorcher" in vanilla and never thought it unbalanced.

 

[Txurce]

I think I mentioned this the last time this discussion took place, but I'll just weigh in that I always loved the "Scorcher" in vanilla and never thought it unbalanced.

Is that the scout-archer? I missed it when it went away, have become used to it being gone and understand the reasoning behind it, but wouldn't find it as unbalanced as a levy. (A levy also loses the terrain edge, by the way, although presumably it would pick it up very quickly.)

 

[Thalassicus]

Click here to vote your preference for the viable solutions to this problem. Let's continue the discussion there.