Scout Experience Promotions

[CrazyG]

Sure scouts earn XP okay with survivalism 3, but how are you getting scouts to level 3 without exploration? Maybe later you can send one or two though ocean or have military academies, but there are plenty of cases where I want cool recon units and I can't use them effectively. I think we're blocking off a cool addition to warfare when the solution is right in front of us.

Part of the reason they are so cool is because they are rare. How much does XP for pillaging even help? I find 2 XP for just sitting in enemy territory pretty gimmicky.

Either way, I'm fine with testing the XP stuff as part of the level two promotions

 

[Txurce]

Part of the reason they are so cool is because they are rare. How much does XP for pillaging even help? I find 2 XP for just sitting in enemy territory pretty gimmicky.

Either way, I'm fine with testing the XP stuff as part of the level two promotions

I'd also add that super-buffed scouts are much more advantageous to the player.

 

[tu_79]

If you get to survivalism III its easy to keep gaining experience throughout the game

Sure scouts earn XP okay with survivalism 3,

This is why I proposed to leave XP (free) promotion only in Trailblazer branch.

 

[CrabHelmet]

The only thing I find weird about Scouts is that there is no promotion for improved movement on Plains/Grassland. I always found it weird that any unit would move better in Forest than open terrain, even a unit specifically trained to move through Forests. Surely Trailblazer I should be doubled movement on open terrain, and Trailblazer II doubled movement through forest?

It's not a balance thing, I just find it really weird.

 

[ElliotS]

This is why I proposed to leave XP (free) promotion only in Trailblazer branch.

But what happens when you build a scout to help in a war and can only get it to survivalism 1 or 2? There's a pretty big XP gap between survivalism 2 and 3, which is a pretty big deal.

 

[Legen]

To me, the XP promotions could be earned as Pathfinders are upgraded to Scouts and Explorers, perheaphs with two tiers; it makes sense that later recon units would get alternative ways to earn XP to make up for the lack of tiles to reveal.

For instance, say that building/upgrading to a scout gives a tier I of both XP promotions, with the unit gains 1-2XP on pillaging and staying on enemy territory. Explorers then could gain the tier II, for 3-4XP when doing the same.

The only thing I find weird about Scouts is that there is no promotion for improved movement on Plains/Grassland. I always found it weird that any unit would move better in Forest than open terrain, even a unit specifically trained to move through Forests.

Maybe they are traveling Tarzan-style.

 

[tu_79]

But what happens when you build a scout to help in a war and can only get it to survivalism 1 or 2? There's a pretty big XP gap between survivalism 2 and 3, which is a pretty big deal.

You can use survivalism 2 scouts in combat, as a wall for archers (fortified in forest or forts). Eventually they can get experience. You cannot do that with trailblazer 2 scouts.

 

[ElliotS]

You can use survivalism 2 scouts in combat, as a wall for archers (fortified in forest or forts). Eventually they can get experience. You cannot do that with trailblazer 2 scouts.

I agree with trailblazer getting the promotion, I just think that survivalism should also get an XP promotion. Most units can attack or defend. Scouting type units before paratroopers rarely attack, so they're basically getting 1/2 XP at best.

 

[tu_79]

I agree with trailblazer getting the promotion, I just think that survivalism should also get an XP promotion. Most units can attack or defend. Scouting type units before paratroopers rarely attack, so they're basically getting 1/2 XP at best.

If you ask too much, you risk getting nothing... Just saying.

 

[ElliotS]

If you ask too much, you risk getting nothing... Just saying.

I don't think asking for changes to two promotions is too much.

 

[ElliotS]

So the new patch is out. I'm still not in favor of these promotions. I'll throw up two straw polls with all the suggestions listed to see where people are feeling: (Please note that this is for general solution. Exact numbers can be discussed after.)

Vote: It's your duty!

Second: With multiple choice enabled!

I'm honestly also wondering how multiple choice will change things.

Thank guys!

 

[CrabHelmet]

I voted and then reconsidered. Trailblazer Scouts get EXP so much faster because of the additional movement that it is unfair on Survivalism Scouts, so my real suggestion is: put the experience promotions into Survivalism Scouts.

 

[ElliotS]

I voted and then reconsidered. Trailblazer Scouts get EXP so much faster because of the additional movement that it is unfair on Survivalism Scouts, so my real suggestion is: put the experience promotions into Survivalism Scouts.

But Trailblazer scouts only get XP until you run out of tiles to explore, then they're useless. How does the idea that losing one or two units locks you out of an entire military path sound? Survivalism needs it's promotion, but probably a bit less imo.

 

[tu_79]

I voted and then reconsidered. Trailblazer Scouts get EXP so much faster because of the additional movement that it is unfair on Survivalism Scouts, so my real suggestion is: put the experience promotions into Survivalism Scouts.

You misunderstand. Those XP promotions are intended for the time when exploration no longer applies. The only way to earn XP is by fighting, something scouts are not very good at. Survivalism Scouts are quite better in this regard than Trailblazer ones.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I... don't really use Scouts for anything other than exploration and to increase line of sight/medic support. They don't need anything else.

 

[CrazyG]

I... don't really use Scouts for anything other than exploration and to increase line of sight/medic support. They don't need anything else.

This is how I feel. I might keep one scout to be, well a scout. I don't see why I need a bunch of scouts. I also don't see why I even care about giving XP to a unit which doesn't fight

 

[Txurce]

This is how I feel. I might keep one scout to be, well a scout. I don't see why I need a bunch of scouts. I also don't see why I even care about giving XP to a unit which doesn't fight

The better to exploit the AI. There is NO other reason.

 

[tu_79]

I'd like to retake the issue. I don't need a poll, but ask yourself:

1. Is Trailblazing II any good? Moving faster over deserts sounds like a good idea, but if I take sight promotion, I almost never need to walk on desert/tundra. Even more, with trailblazing I I'm running over tiles that offer some defense. If I ever take trailblazing, for my very first pathfinder, next promotion is almost always Survivalism.

2. Anyone has any experience with trailblazing III, aka retreat from melee? Regarding how low priority trailblazing II is for me, I almost never reach to trailblazing III.

3. Is anyone taking any of those promotions that give experience? I was tempted once, but decided that one more sight would be more useful.

So, as I see it now, trailblazing is only useful very early in the game to grasp a few goody huts, or be the first to meet some city states before other AI close the path. Maybe they are useful again in the very late game, when you can paradrop and move and pillage.

Don't take the following suggestions as good ideas, but just something to think about.

Trailblazing I: Double movement in ROUGH terrain.
Trailblazing II: Pillaging gives 5 XP, may retreat from melee.
Trailblazing III: +50%CS vs ranged attacks.
Trailblazing IV: Heal every turn, ignores ZoC

Survivalism I: No change
Survivalism II: No change
Survivalism III: 2XP every turn and +20%CS when in enemy land territory.
Survivalism IV: -50%CS to enemy units revealed this turn.

So, one tree for revealing territory and pillaging, the other tree for escorting units and helping in attacks.

 

[Tekamthi]

I'll make a case for trailblazer 1&2, though I generally agree with the concerns raised in this thread...

Trailblazer scouts make great surprise-pillagers, to take out key resources, or well-placed but unmanned citadels (an AI favorite)... I definitely find them *useful*, and at least in my play-style take these as often as survivalism, though admittedly I rarely take it all the way to TB3, nor any of the other XP promos. TB2 is much more a niche choice than TB1, but for the pillage-then-escape role, it can be invaluable with just 1-2 of the applicable tiles around.

Maybe its just me, but I rarely/never see any AI "scouts" (unless from early ruin upgrade) or "explorers"... zeppelins too for that matter. I have seen a few TB AI recon, but they usually die quite quickly.

In other recon unit matters, I dislike how losing an early unit usually determines whether you have a super-elite paratrooper ~3000 years later. I suppose this is the case with other units to some extent, but w/o a pure combat role, adding xp to new recon units at a similar pace as is available early-game, is nearly impossible. I truly wonder if any of you actually build new recon units from mid-game onwards? at the very most i build 1-2 early to help my original pathfinder explore, and then none til paratrooper. I wonder if this role could not be improved more generally, beyond XP promo issues.

Out of the various fixes here, I like the idea of making the XP promos free to later recon units... but I would add the qualifier of only adding these to newly built units, and not upgraded (i'm pretty sure there's a 'notwithupgrade' field in existing VP promo tables.. not to be confused with 'lostwithupgrade'). There is less exploration recon xp at this point in game, new recon units especially need another XP mechanism available to increase their viability

 

[Txurce]

Whenever possible, I war with a scout... that is, just a scout. Often the result is a crippling of my neighbor, without having to expend any gold or hammers on it. Given this, I get a lot of the promotions - and given that, I usually go for the XP one asap, because I know I'm going to be able to quickly rack up points with it.

The only promotion I don't find useful as a rule is desert/snow, but I could on the right map, and it comes along late enough that I don't mind it.