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Scout Experience Promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Nov 21, 2017.

?

Do you consistently pick the XP promotions and think it's a good idea?

Poll closed Nov 28, 2017.
  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    6.3%
  2. No

    15 vote(s)
    93.8%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    What benefit does exploring a continental interior yield outside of maybe a few natural wonders that are hiding away? No new trade routes, no new intel re army strength, very little info about other civs that you can't deduce from demographics once they have been met. Why bother?
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    1. A few NW's. Trust me, I will not turn down any sources of happiness from the mid-game on.
    2. Where their non-coastal borders are. Where their cities are.
    3. How they're doing in a war that otherwise I wouldn't be able to see.
    4. Why bother, apart from all that, which is useful, or at least interesting, but not often not essential? For the XP, which I love to exploit.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Already stated this is the one value that scouting presents. Does not change my opinion about why you don't just get a knight to do it.
    This has no -in-game value to you. It might satisfy your curiosity, but that's all
    Look at diplomacy once all civs are met. Check military demographics of civs at war with each other and see which one is bigger. Boom.
    XP on a unit that is not worth having is not XP worth having. The only civ who benefits from this is Brazil and maybe Japan (levelling on Dojo-trained explorer)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    So you agree that NW's are worth it, but you'd rather put a knight out of action exploring another continent than your explorer -- hey, I respectfully disagree. I like to see how a war is going, and what I would encounter if I invade, but you don't care about that much detail. And you see no value in XP for a unit you don't value, whereas I value the hell out of it. (Those XP still count once the unit becomes a paratrooper, you know.)

    You're not going to convince me that a unit that does a lot for me a lot of the game, and something all of the game, needs more. And I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just explaining why I don't want any more promotions. I win wars with the damn units solo as late as Classical, and have super-valuable paratroopers/X-com units in the late game. I would hate to be without them, whereas I often win games having built ONE warrior and zero siege units. We play differently, that's all. But my playstyle has allowed me to learn, in detail, just how unbalanced the scout is in human hands. Hence, my thumbs-down for most additional promotions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Sout- available early classical. 2 move. 10 CP
    Spearman - available late ancient. 2 move. 11 CP
    Horseman - available late ancient. 4 move. 15 CP
    I'm not going to suggest to you that you can't play the way you do, but I might go as far as to say that if you tried to pull that on another human player with a more conventional playstyle then it wouldn't fly.

    As for having highly trained paratroopers, I won't deny the value in that, but I would rather not hang onto a unit for 5 eras so that it can become useful eventually
    I really don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but I don’t believe you. If you aren't trying to convince anyone of anything, then what purpose do you have in giving your opinions? If you had no interest in dialogue then you wouldn’t participate in dialogue
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  6. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    1. Scouts: available as early as your first ruin, if I'm not mistaken. And when promoted, much more durable and mobile than a spearman. Capable of winning a war as a solo unit... and so are pathfinders. You just have to be more careful with them. Scouts are flat-out abusive on Immortal.
    2. I'm not playing against a human player. I'm playing against the AI. Which is why I don't want to give myself any more of an advantage.
    3. I said I'm not trying to convince YOU of anything. But I am making sure that the "no more promotions" line of thought is represented on this thread, because... see above.
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  7. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

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    lets only put free xp promos on newly built recon units, not upgraded.. would mitigate this concern? ie your original pathfinder sees no change throughout the game. No one ever builds scouts/explorers i think (contrast vs upgrade).. a free promo that is otherwise also available to your elite pathfinder-upgrade recon through a promo is maybe a subtle incentive to do so here.. I imagine your OG pathfinder will still be your best option for elite paratrooper, but mid-game recon at least will be a little more caught up this way
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Here's an idea. Weaken survialism a little bit (only 15% or 20% instead of 25% defense) in exchange for a tiny CS buff. The issue is have with going several layers into trailblazer is that a stray gust of wind can deal 90 damage to my level 4 unit.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Keep in mind that you are not just changing the scout with that adjustment but the paratrooper, special forces, and xcom squad.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Question, do people take the trailblazer path on paratrooper units? This would make them a little better at attacking, but a little worse at defending.

    If I'm in a forest I could see myself maybe taking trailblazer 1 maybe, but what makes these units so strong is they can reach healing every turn with only 3 promotions.
    I build a scout or explorer occasionally
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    This is a good idea, although I would save it for Explorer. I do build scouts, if my OG guy or guys gets killed.

    To me, the underlying problem is the explorer/zeppelin phase. I basically exploit pathfinders and scouts, and paratroopers on are basically okay (although I don't mind them being tweaked, as the AI can use them). Explorers are mildly useful scouting, and can serve as medics behind the lines, but don't do much else. Zeps are a weird unit, period. I think it makes some sense to give Explorers a CS buff, and it wouldn't hurt the Zep (although it doesn't transform them, either). Stalker0, I think it comes down to having the number be modest enough to not be significant at the paratrooper + level.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  13. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I feel like Zepplins are a whole extra discussion that needs to happen after we resolve this. Let's agree to come back to them after we figure out what we're changing here.

    I think Scouts and Explorers should have a bit more of a combat role. Their main uses should be vision, disruption/pillaging and defending your ranged units on the flanks.

    Scouts are fine as a unit, but suffer from lack of XP heavily. This isn't a problem for your OG scout, but is a real one for new scouts. I think the idea of the XP promotion(s) being on newly-built scout+ units is good, or roll them into the 2nd tier promotions.

    Explorers are 100% too weak. Pikemen were buffed and come earlier, and Explorers don't get an extra 50% vs the strongest units of the era. I would give explorers a promotion called "Explorer's Zeal" that gives them +30% CS when defending and doesn't carry over. Maybe buff them to 17 CS as well, but that might be overkill.

    This would make them better at not dying while not making them better (or only a tiny bit better) at attacking/demanding tribute.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    1. I didn't say pathfinders/scouts are not useful. They are. They have their role. Maybe AI don't peruse them. Me neither.
    2. I see the usefulness of Trailblazing I, you can't see behind a forest, no matter how high your vision is, so moving fast through the wilderness is good for exploring. I just can't see this happening for trailblazing II, snow and desert don't obscure sight. If I have to choose, I pick any other thing that helps my pathfinder suriving longer: Sight, so I can avoid passing close to enemies, survivalism, so I can defend better in case I have no escape.
    Well, maaaybe moving faster on deserts and snow may allow the pathfinder to turn back and escape danger, but remember, this is open terrain, so no +25/+35% defense. I don't pay a visit to such places until I have something like a spearsman or better a horseman.
    3. If I want my scout to be useful when closed borders allow no further land exploration, I need it to have medic or survivalism II, so it can heal or escort civils. When I send my scouts far away to reveal as much land as possible, they usually don't come back, they are either trapped, either killed. In rare occasions, a scout/explorer that was sitting in the same place for ages (just because he had some good promotions and I didn't want to delete it), can get back to work when open borders are allowed.
    4. I'd like to use them as pillagers, maybe they are even good at it, but I just can't. It's so tempting to produce a skirmisher. He's fast too, pillages, doesn't get killed, has natural ranged defense and even can do some damage in case he gets trapped. So, main use is spotters. I place some of them over hills, and let them watch. But then, they don't get experience. Secondary use is healers, safe from attacks, and not gaining much experience for it.

    Why do I want such units leveling up? Well, it is fun. A good spotter watching 5 tiles away is a good military asset. A unit able to wreak the economy of any unprotected city in 2 turns is something to consider.

    I don't buy the 'AI is not handling this well' argument. Spotting requires very little for the AI, just have your unit alive and it will do the work, surprise pillaging is something it apparently already does well enough.

    So, why extra movement on rough terrain? Rough is the terrain that blocks sight. Rough is the terrain that allows my pathfinders find some cover. Rough is where a pathfinder wants to live.
    Or it could be just the opposite. Extra movement on non featured terrain, so pathfinders run faster where they are more vulnerable. It would be more realistic, too.
     
  15. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    That the AI is not handling this well is abundantly self-evident -- they barely even use the units at that point in the game. Are you denying this? Do you see the AI using scouts as scouts in wartime in Medieval/Renaissance?

    Your post also makes it evident that you aren't handling them very well, either. But that's not a good enough reason to give them fresh promotions that favor you much more than the AI.

    All of this makes sense to me -- especially making the Zep its own conversation. The recce line doesn't need strengthening overall, but rather selective buffing at certain stages. I'm assuming something like Explorer's Zeal would be an earned promotion -- not an automatic one -- the sort they'd probably get with an armory. (And yeah, 17CS seems a bit like overkill to me.)
     
  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I would think it's automatic.

    It's just that Explorers have 15 CS, and at most +50% when defending. This puts them at 22.5CS on defense, which gets them shredded by knights with a 25 CS +30% at level 3. (32.5 CS) Without going Survivalism they have 15 CS and take 50+ damage per hit.

    Adding a 30% defense boost would put them at 27 CS with survivalism and 19.5 CS without survivalism.

    This doesn't factor in terrain, which could theoretically being them up to ~30.75 CS on a hill or forest.

    These numbers seen right, and handling them this was wouldn't let them attack or tribute better.
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    You're right.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I wonder if my bad performance with trailblazer could be a consequence of playing small maps. Deserts are so small that tb2 barely shaves 1 or 2 turns crossing them. Also, less map to reveal, less experience.
     
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  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Whereas I play standard Communitas only. Yeah, our experiences are going to be very different. (That's part of what I worry about in the VP thread!)
     
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  20. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Entirely possible. I play standard size planet simulator maps. Even with TB2 it can take me 10 turns or more to explore some of the larger deserts (before I have extra sight).
     
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