Scout promotions

[pineappledan]

What if TB III made everything except Deep Ocean and Ice accessible? That would also seem more thematic, since Trailblazer is all about creating more movement options.

Keep TB 1 & 2 the same (even if TBII is a bit of a dud, it's okay as long as the whole line is good)

TB 3 = "Ignores Zone of Control. Chance to Withdraw from Combat. Can enter Mountain tiles. Unit can Embark.

So if you get your pathfinder levelled early, embarking into water or retreating onto a mountain are viable ways to escape units. I think the ability to embark would be really great to have, because pathfinders often end up really far away from your borders, so they don't get embarkation even long after you've researched it. They could snag ruins they find on easy to reach islands, evade barbs if they have gotten zoned onto a peninsula, etc.

TB scouts covers more ground faster, but are in a constant cat & mouse to run from barbs
Survivalist scouts can shrug off most damage, and don't need to take downtime for heals. They can keep moving consistently, and the promotion line protects your investment.

I think giving more movement options and unlocking embark preserves this flavor, without giving the TB scouts any tools to actually take a hit, or utility in a war. I don't think giving them bonuses which are geared towards major civs is on-brand for TB scouts; that is survivalism's job.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

For my first (or second, if I build another one early, which I rarely do) scout I always go trailblazer, then the bonus vision, then bonus movement, then survivabilty. This dude grabs XP like a boss, getting all the promotions in the end. By getting the better exploration upgrades first, scouting and levelling up is just soo much quicker.
That said, I usually don't build scout line units for any other purpose than exploration. I don't think they have to be battly worthy until they are paratroopers.

However, if you are lucky and get the upgrade as a ruin bonus, your initial scout (now explorer) is nearly unkillable one he has surv 3 and medic 2, and dominates the battlefield until the Rennaissance.

 

[Gidoza]

pineappledan I appreciate your suggestion of having embarkation - it makes plenty of sense to have that go with the promotion as an escape option.

 

[ElliotS]

pineappledan I appreciate your suggestion of having embarkation - it makes plenty of sense to have that go with the promotion as an escape option.

I don't think it's possible. Pretty sure G was very clear about that before, but I could be wrong.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s all possible. There’s already mountain passable and embarkation in the code. If gazebo has already shot those suggestions down then that’s fine, but can you link where he said that?

 

[ElliotS]

It’s all possible. There’s already mountain passable and embarkation in the code. If gazebo has already shot those suggestions down then that’s fine, but can you link where he said that?

No, if you say it's possible then you know better than me.

 

[pineappledan]

Trailblazer line revamped
I: Double Movement in Jungles, Forests, Desert, and Snow, +10% strength outside friendly lands.
II: Ignores Zone of Control, +10% strength outside friendly lands.
III: Attempts to withdraw when faced with a melee attack (60% chance), +10% strength outside friendly lands.

The newest patch notes.
What I want to know is why anyone would pick TB III over the Scouting line? Hitting TB II for free movement, then going down the scouting line for +2 vision and +1 move for even more, faster promotions seems like the no-brainer now. You are 20% more resilient to attacks, and can move around barbs sooner, so the withdrawal is only necessary if you aren't healing enough from level-ups alone.

There might be some occasions where people want to still get a hardy survivalist scout later in the game, but it seems like this is going to make TB the easy 1st pick for your 1st scout in all circumstances except maybe raging barbs.

 

[CrazyG]

New TB 1 is way too good.

What I want to know is why anyone would pick TB III over the Scouting line? Hitting TB II for free movement, then going down the scouting line for +2 vision and +1 move for even more, faster promotions seems like the no-brainer now. You are 20% more resilient to attacks, and can move around barbs sooner, so the withdrawal is only necessary if you aren't healing enough from level-ups alone.

I think you are overestimating that +10% strength outside friendly lands. Your unit is going to take a lot of damage and heal slowly.

Taking +1 sight for increased experience is really dumb, isn't it? You aren't really getting promotions faster than a scout who took actually useful stuff.
Option A: A Scout that wants TB 1 and 2, followed by Survive 1,2,3 needs to hit level 5, at that point its a very strong unit.

Option B: If you go TB 1,2, then scouting in order to get more promotions, you finish scouting at level 5. I think you need to hit level 7 before the unit is debatably as useful as option A? Maybe on really enormous maps it works, but I run out of map to discover. +1 sight does occasionally have uses in warfare, but I'd say +25% defense (or healing every turn) are a lot more useful most of the time. The +1 movement is good

I've tried the idea of taking scouting for more experience, I don't think you ever catch up to where you would be without it. I think its TB1 every time, after that the options are competitive.

 

[pineappledan]

I think you are overestimating that +10% strength outside friendly lands. Your unit is going to take a lot of damage and heal slowly.

All I meant was that, in comparison to how we have been playing up till now, that's +20% CS that we didn't have. It's going to result in less downtime for TB scouts because they can tank damage better. I'm not comparing it to Survivalism, only saying that +20% CS in foreign means TB scouts are recovering from hits faster because they take less damage. On a good game, I could sometimes heal through 1 or 2 hits on a TB scout as long as I kept it moving. Now with +20%CS, ZOC and double movement on 4 tile types pushed earlier, I feel even more confident in my ability to do so. Getting up to Scouting III means you have levelled up 5 times, for 50 free HP.

Taking +1 sight for increased experience is really dumb, isn't it? You aren't really getting promotions faster than a scout who took actually useful stuff.

Not dumb at all. With 4 move through difficult terrain, you can get XP off tiles that are further away faster, or tiles that would be impossible to get XP off of otherwise, like scouting deep ocean tiles off the shoreline. I've taken scouting 2, and crested a hill for an instant 8XP before. If you get a ruin into a scout, that's base 3 vision, or 36 revealed tiles. +2 vision gives you a 5 tile radius, or 90 tiles. That's 2.5x the coverage. You can level up very quickly with the scouting line, as long as barbs aren't a problem. Then America can get 6 tile radius, or 126 tiles... crazy...

Scouts with that much vision are very handy in wars. It can free up spies that you might need for vision and troop movement, and can pick off trade routes much more easilly.

It's actually level 6, since your scouts start at level 1, not level 0, but yeah. You could go TB II --> Survival III, rather than TB II --> Scouting III, but THAT's the hard decision. With TB I being that good, TBIII is no contest. If I ever picked it before, which was rare, it was always for the ZOC.

 

[CrazyG]

Not dumb at all. With 4 move through difficult terrain, you can get XP off tiles that are further away faster, or tiles that would be impossible to get XP off of otherwise, like scouting deep ocean tiles off the shoreline. I've taken scouting 2, and crested a hill for an instant 8XP before. If you get a ruin into a scout, that's base 3 vision, or 36 revealed tiles. +2 vision gives you a 5 tile radius, or 90 tiles. That's 2.5x the coverage. You can level up very quickly with the scouting line, as long as barbs aren't a problem. Then America can get 6 tile radius, or 126 tiles... crazy...

There aren't infinite tiles though.........You need like 225 experience more than the guy who skips scouting 1 (if you are taking two layers its like 400 XP). Do you earn more XP? Yes? 400 more? No.

Skip the middleman, take the promotion you want. +1 sight is commonly more valuable than 25% defense or healing every turn? I don't buy it.

 

[pineappledan]

At any rate that was never my point. I'm saying that TB1 and 2 are too good, and TB 3 isn't worth it. The promotion line is frontloaded

 

[ElliotS]

I'd do this:
Trailblazer line revamped
I: Double Movement in Jungles, Forests, Desert, and Snow.
II: +1 Sight, +10% strength outside friendly lands.
III: Attempts to withdraw when faced with a melee attack (50% chance), +10% strength outside friendly lands, +25 HP when pillaging or killing a unit.
Scouting:
I: +1 Sight, +10% strength outside friendly lands.
II: Ignores Zone of Control
III: +1 Movement

 

[Omen of Peace]

Why is there no promotion that gives extra movement in standard* terrain?
From a comment I read somewhere, I guessed there's been debates in the past about that, so can someone sum up briefly why things are as they are?

*standard as in "normal cost": plains/grassland without feature

 

[pineappledan]

Why is there no promotion that gives extra movement in standard* terrain?
From a comment I read somewhere, I guessed there's been debates in the past about that, so can someone sum up briefly why things are as they are?

Because forests/hills are features which modify plains and grassland. Snow and desert are their own tile types.
It would be impossible to give a double movement bonus for grassland without also giving double movement in grassland-forest or grassland-hills. Open terrain is defined only by its lack of features, which means it can't be singled out in the way you are describing.

 

[Legen]

Wasn't part of the issue that people would often skip Trailblazer I completely because it lacked combat bonuses? I think that +10% is needed, especially since pathfinders/scouts have a penalty against barbarians. Even at TB III, that pathfinder is still worse at dealing with barbarians than a 0xp warrior, and a TB III scout is just comparable to a 0xp spearmen, and that before accounting for difficulty and Authority bonuses. You would still prefer to use a standard military unit, but there are times when you want your recon unit to be at least comparable to them; killing a barbarian near a city state, or adding respectable damage alongside that other military unit you brought to clear a camp. It's not just about surviving barbarian aggression as you explore.

Even with a frontloaded promotion, Trailblazer recon units won't make a good backup defense in case a barbarian is too close to your cities, or an early defensive war. They aren't as reliable at protecting your settlers either. They need strong compensation for all of that somewhere else, or we'll keep prioritizing Survivalism after TB I for the sheer combat value it provides to cover the recon's weaknesses.

 

[CrazyG]

How do people feel about the treasure hunter promotion? I find it unnecessary. It makes gold and production ruins really high impact.

 

[Omen of Peace]

Because forests/hills are features which modify plains and grassland. Snow and desert are their own tile types.
It would be impossible to give a double movement bonus for grassland without also giving double movement in grassland-forest or grassland-hills. Open terrain is defined only by its lack of features, which means it can't be singled out in the way you are describing.

OK, got it.

But should we keep distinguishing those specific cases? Why do TB pathfinders go faster in snow than on a flat plain?
Note that I like the flavour of distinguishing terrain types, but the current bonus seems highly illogical to me (and it does not especially improve balance/fun, which would be a good reason to overrule logic).

What about a flat +1 to movement at TB I, and another +1 at TB II or III?

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

My 2 cents:
1. Make one line of scout promotions (trailblazer) for fast exploration of lands, finding ruins and withstanding barbarian attacks, while remaining weak against AI units and weak when attacking barbarians
2. Make another line of promotions (skirmish) for "tanky" reconnaissance units that can be used for aggression against barbarians and AIs
3. Make a third line of promotions (medic) for strong, durable medics

Specific suggestions:
a.) remove treasure hunter as a given promotion, move it to the TB line of promotions (preferably TB 1)
b.) if possible, remove the ability of reconnaissance units upgrading to a better unit from ruins
c.) give the TB line of promotions extra movement points, extra movement in forests, hills etc.
d.) give the TB line 50% defense against barbarians
e.) give the TB line extra sight
f.) give the skirmish promotion line ability to move after attacking, extra movement, no movement cost to pillage, 5 extra points when pillaging, extra CS% when on a pillaged tile, ignore ZoC, march etc.
g.) give the medic line two +30% defense promotions against ranged attacks; give the medic line medic I, II and III (so something different/better than ranged/melee medics); +10% CS on defense for adjacent fortified friendly units (preferably as the very last promotion)

This is just brainstorming. But I'd rather have three different promotion lines for 3 different type of scouts, even if each line has fewer total promotions, than just 2 different promotion lines with more available promotions.

 

[Gazebo]

My 2 cents:
1. Make one line of scout promotions (trailblazer) for fast exploration of lands, finding ruins and withstanding barbarian attacks, while remaining weak against AI units and weak when attacking barbarians
2. Make another line of promotions (skirmish) for "tanky" reconnaissance units that can be used for aggression against barbarians and AIs
3. Make a third line of promotions (medic) for strong, durable medics

Specific suggestions:
a.) remove treasure hunter as a given promotion, move it to the TB line of promotions (preferably TB 1)
b.) if possible, remove the ability of reconnaissance units upgrading to a better unit from ruins
c.) give the TB line of promotions extra movement points, extra movement in forests, hills etc.
d.) give the TB line 50% defense against barbarians
e.) give the TB line extra sight
f.) give the skirmish promotion line ability to move after attacking, extra movement, no movement cost to pillage, 5 extra points when pillaging, extra CS% when on a pillaged tile, ignore ZoC, march etc.
g.) give the medic line two +30% defense promotions against ranged attacks; give the medic line medic I, II and III (so something different/better than ranged/melee medics); +10% CS on defense for adjacent fortified friendly units (preferably as the very last promotion)

This is just brainstorming. But I'd rather have three different promotion lines for 3 different type of scouts, even if each line has fewer total promotions, than just 2 different promotion lines with more available promotions.

Three lines is a no-go.

The current changelog will go live today, I'm not entertaining modifications to the scouting promotions. TB I is a very good promotion, with diminishing value on II/III relative to survivalism. So the question becomes, is TB I worth delaying higher-end promotions elsewhere for the scout? That's what we'll need to see.

G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

It's a no-go because it's not possible code-wise or for some other reason?

None of the current proposals currently, imo, gives the player any incentive to build scout units after the first or second pathfinder until paratroopers come online, but the one I mentioned, with better medics (than medics of any other class of units) and special "skirmish" melee units, would give a player incentive to build such scouts, explorers & zeppelins.