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Scouting is under-rated?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by gozpel, May 21, 2018.

  1. gozpel

    gozpel Couch-potato (fortified)

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    Even on Deity I build at least 2 scouts. They find huts and wonders, and some new neighbours.

    I see many Youtubers like Marbozir, PotatoMcWhiskey, Civtrader and Quill18 skip the scouts on Deity.

    All great players with a different view, but in almost every game they miss out on the scouts.

    I also play on Deity and always make sure to send 2 scouts out, we need to know the layout of the map right? How can it be possibly more important to your civ to get that extra warrior out before anything else?

    Defense maybe, but the more you explore the more money you get. Well might be my playstyle, you DON'T have to kill your next neighbour right away. If they settle close I let them build some stuff, as I work on getting 3-4 cities out, without being aggro.

    This said, the named players are probably better than me understanding the overall mechanics of the game, so I will not question their reasons. They are all amazing in their own ways.

    But in my games, scouts are super-important, well how do you feel about this?
     
  2. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    It's not under-rated it's simply too risky because more than half the time you get useless benefits like the boost to foreign trade, mysticism etc that you would have gotten anyway. On Deity the extra units they get and the proximity of spawn points also means that more often than not you will meet an AI player before meeting any city state which means most likely they already met those city states before you. Also Barbarians.

    Of course if Rngeus favours your scouts you could come out on top with benefits that are far superior to not building scouts such as free builders and actually meeting city states before the AI. That is however all a gamble and as things are strategies that are not reliable don't really count.

    You should perhaps consider the fact that the mentality of Deity players is to catch up as soon as possible so they already surrendered to the fact that you cannot outdo the cheats early on. Instead of trying to fight that advantage head on they choose to ignore it entirely and focus on stuff like early wars which requires you to get your army up and running as soon as possible.

    I must say though, for people seeking to build certain Wonders like the Apadana meeting a cultured/scientific city state early on is quite imperative if you want to have a chance at building it. Those turns really do make a difference then. Then again given the warring mentality of some Deity players it's always the better option to take those than build them.
     
  3. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    I greatly appreciate scouting. So much so that I play Immortal/Deity with the starting scout mod. It seems ridiculous to me that you don't already start with a scout. And the AI has such huge advantages anyway. If I don't pop a 2nd scout from a goody hut by turn 30 I generally build another and keep it close to help with map control or chase down an unprotected settler.. which, btw, I've noticed has gotten a lot rarer after the spring patch.
     
  4. Sherlock

    Sherlock Just one more turn...

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    Scouts get killed too easily. I build one, then slingers and warriors who can actually stand a chance against the barbarian horde.
     
  5. BenitoChavez

    BenitoChavez Whispering Walrus

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    Scouts are great. Even if all the goody huts are taken and all the cities states are already met you can use them to discover more land to settle, get info on what AI troop movements are, steal a stray settler/worker, etc.

    The problem is on higher difficulties, if you don't build a warrior/slinger first you risk getting rushed by the AI and losing in less than 30 turns so I hardly ever build them.
     
  6. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    You can use scouts with decoy/delay tactics. I always use scouts to lead a triggered barb horde to a city state or another civ. As long as they don't have horses or have already zeroed in on one of your cities it usually works
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  7. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    I hardly ever build a scout and seem to do alright. I was inspired to play a game as the Cree from the Civ of the Week thread and actually built one. I find a builder more useful though, shrug. Gets me a craftsmanship boost. A 2nd builder is also useful for luxury resource trading and can also clear terrain for things like the Temple of Artemis and what-not. I find a builder 1st works well. I find I'm rarely able to defend against a determined, early AI rush, and the warrior or slinger makes little difference, so I don't bother. I prefer to use a builder to extract a luxury resource, then if I see AI troops, sell it to the AI, then use the funds to create a slinger or warrior.

    *I play Immortal level though, as I don't much like to mess with the exploits like overflow production and what-not. Perhaps it only works on Immortal and lower? Too much button clicking and simultaneous strategies for my taste with deity. That's the same reason I don't usually try for religions. I can get religion, but have to work allot of variables simultaneoumsly.
    Sid Meier's Civilization VI (DX11) 5_20_2018 5_16_26 PM_LI.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  8. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Barbarians and neighboring civs don't really care about my cartography. They only understand arrows and clubs, so ....

    Especially with the recent patch, the AI will hit you hard and fast. I've almost died a few times on Emperor and Immortal; can only imagine Deity's nonsense. It also does not help the map generator insists on putting you close to someone regardless of what map you pick.

    The other thing is that boosting Craftsmanship and getting 2 cities puts you in a very strong position regardless of anything else, while scouting may or may not be fruitful.

    Finally, warriors can scout too. Not as well but they're better at holding off things.
     
  9. gozpel

    gozpel Couch-potato (fortified)

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    Scouts never dies in my games, if they see a barb warrior they just fortify on a hill for a few turns, and the barb will kill himself, and you have a promotion.

    I understand things are always situational on Deity, so if you meet them early, you might have a challenge. Sorting that out with 2 warriors and a slinger or 2, you can repel any early attacks.

    The luck from scouts is of course important, but not necessary to hold your own ground. By turn 20, the AI shouldn't send you an army your way, if you sent a delegation. They might later, but that is a different story. IF your scouts find a cultural, faith, sci or even comm CS early, is enough to keep you from getting killed.

    And the meaning of catch up from those great players, I don't compare myself to them, I play it my way and doing ok, maybe a tad slower than them. But I am not competing or trying to break their insane records. :)

    I just say I am in the ballpark and still think scouts are a good investment.
     
  10. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    The problem is that barb warriors are often grouped together (on Deity).
    Due to barb camp spawn rules once it begin to spawn barbs it spawns a lot of units in a few turns, so when you see a non-scout barbarian it is likely that there're many more around.
    For me the most usual case if I get an early scout from goody hut is that the scout use its 3rd movement point and see 2 barbs next to it. The next turn it gets killed, or being surrounded and cannot escape, without having provided anything positive to me.
     
  11. gozpel

    gozpel Couch-potato (fortified)

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    1 movement at a time, would be my advice. If you see a camp after first move, go back. You outrun them everyday of the week, except horses. But at least you found something.....interesting, haha. :)

    Always rest in woods,they can't touch you. After you have got woods and hills promotion, you can save them easily.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  12. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    If you go 2x scout on Deity, prepare to hit the restart button. :king: You need like 12 turns to build them. On turn 12-15, standard continents maps, you often get rushed by the first barb camp, an early AI rush can happen anytime after turn 20.

    Twitch/youtube streamers probably don't want to restart several times. An extra early warrior/slinger can certainly be a life saver.
    It's not about saving the scout, it's about saving your capital/expansion plans. Scouts get easily overwhelmed by more than 1 unit and are terrible at destroying barb camps. Against AI warriors with +4 combat strength on Deity, they are pretty much worthless after the first round of attacks, unless you play as the Cree.

    If you go warrior first for example, you can sometimes kill two barb camps before they can spawn their first wave of units. And then you have two warriors with a promotion who can be fortified on a hill to block a possible AI attack. Win/win. Scouts can be build after that if you have a decent starting location with a couple of 2f/2p tiles.

    I'd never skip them completely though. The more you know about the map, the better you can plan your strategy and settling locations.
     
  13. bite

    bite Unofficial Civilization Cartographer Moderator

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    I don't play on deity, but I always build at least one off the start
     
  14. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    I find that the AI civs have so many units, that there are very few goody huts left. Also, it's probably to your advantage to delay contact in most situations -- the more contacts, the more potential DoWs. Not only does that give you a headache, it usually brings them diplomatically closer.
     
  15. gozpel

    gozpel Couch-potato (fortified)

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    You completely misread what I said, I didn't say 2 scouts right away. One scout first, then a warrior or slinger after that, THEN I might consider another scout. And of course I get one. Second city comes when it come.

    Doesn't matter if I have 2-3 units defending me for an early assault with 6-7 units. I kill them.

    Things with delegations early, right on the turn you meet them, will lower the chance of them attacking you. This is the win scenario, they can be your best friend or you kill them later.

    On standard Pangaea, I always use 2 scouts, and they are so good.

    Early on I attack other barbscouts with mine, to get the promotions. This is how they survive to the end, some promoted to the fullest and some turned into rangers.
     
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  16. comatosedragon

    comatosedragon Emperor

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    I love scouting, as the OP has stated, I think it is one of the most important and often over-looked areas of the game (I usually play immortal, not deity).
    I have lately scaled back a bit on scouting though, because even though finding all those CS's as soon as possible is a good idea and getting goody huts is awesome, the unfortunate side-effect of scouting to far too early is that you set yourself up for the inevitable barbarian rape fest. Unfortunately, you have to have military units early to deal with this.

    Moderator Action: Rape is a serious matter and it is time for us to find a better term to express this. Please do not use the term on the forums. leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2018

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