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Screw Democracy

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Exsanguination, Oct 26, 2001.

  1. The Mass Leader

    The Mass Leader The One and Only

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Rio Grande do Sul state, Brazil
    This is time for me to put my own arguments here. The guy who likes democracy can write better than me - and it´s only because english is not my first language - but I have solid reasons to dislike democracy as a form of government and philosophy for conducing the civilization.

    First, I keep my position when I say: If there is republic, why democracy?

    Some thing I do:

    First - When I start the modern ages, I put all my cities to auto-build and give power to the domestic advisor.

    Second - I never change government without the need for it. When Monarchy makes my country to stop developing, I change to republic. When it happens, all Temples, Cathedrals, wonders, courthouses, are already builded. Republic starts working fine.

    Third - I am not affraid of spies. I always build a "Maginot Line"-like defense system, at middle ages. With Leo´s workshop, pikemen become riflemen. No spy can enter my lands without declaring war. If it happens, I will surely leave no holes in the defending lines.


    NOW ---- ** ** COMMUNISM ** ** ----

    If my country is strong on trade and during my monarchy, I builded roads and railroads, I change from Monarch to Communist.
    If Communism, with low or no corruption, can support all the national structure (cities are large, terrains are fertile...), I keep communism. No problems with corruption, no people unrest, no need to ask the senate when I want to make war, no need to explain anyone why my troops move away from home.

    With communism, I get not the same money I was going to get with Republic. But, if I have a country rich enough to keep it´s own structures and prepare a large army, it´s fine. I don´t need a great amount of money to make any war, since my military forces are builded slowly, during long peace periods. When war comes, I have dozens or armours, bombers, Nukes, and all sorts of weapons.

    Oh, and I lately ave started a new policy about United Nations: I build a small city in the desert, build UN there, and thn, disband the city. No artificial peace for anyone. Is someone wants to challenge the Red Army, they can do it freely. I will crush them all.

    - I shall return victorious, or not at all -

    That´s it. Hope I have explained my point well.
     
  2. addiv

    addiv Hero of our time

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    1,650
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    In Civ 2 I always want to conquer the world as fast as possible. But I also want to have my Percentage and Civscore as high as possibe. The question is of course: what is the best way to do this and what are the best governments to do it?

    This my usual path: after I've discovered Horseback Riding I go to Monarchy as fast as possible. That's logical, Monarchy's just better than Despotism.
    I expand as fast as possible. When I come to a very weak opponent who I can wipe out with 2 or 3 units I do it. Other wise I just let them be and focus on expanding. Regarding the techs: after discovering a few very important techs (bronze, masonry) I go to Philosophy and with that Monotheism as fast as possible. Now I have crusaders and if there are any other small/medium sized empires I build up a lot of crusaders and destroy them.
    If this is done and I don't have any small/medium AIs in the way I switch to Republic and let my cities and science grow. I go to develop democracy as fast as possible and if everything is very peaceful and I've build enough happiness wonders/buildings, I switch to Democracy. I keep founding new cities all the time, I expand as fast as possible. I also start irrigating everything and making roads everywhere. So with Democracy my empire grows faster and faster and gets more ahead in science compared to the AI's all the time. I fight as little as possible. I just wait till my empire is big enough to be able to kill all the AIs fast and without much losses. Of course I build Statue of Liberty so I will be able to switch to any government at any time.
    It's usually when I have Armors, but sometimes already when I have cavalry's that I switch to Fundamentalism and conquer the entire world in a massive blow. It depends on how strong, developed and big my opponents are if I wait till Armors or begin already with cavalry's. It also depends a bit on my own empire. If I still have a lot of free space to build new cities I will be less likely to go attacking then if I've reached the borders of my growth.
    So when I attack, a big war begins, but usually it's over in 10-20 turns. I surround the last pathetic AI city with my troops, disband all my units and switch to Democracy again. Then I just try to grow and develop as much as possible, to get as high a Civscore and Percentage as possible.

    In short you could describe my strategy like this:

    Ask yourself all the time what will increase your power compared to the AI more: attacking opponents or peaceful developement?

    Therefore the amount of wars and the moments I switch governments vary from game to game, depending on the specific situation.

    But my government path is almost always: Despotism, Monarchy, Republic, Democracy, Fundamentalism, Democracy.
    Very occasionaly it happens that I don't use Republic; I switch right from Monarchy to Democracy.

    Regarding the best government:

    you may have noticed that the only government I don't use is Communism. The only situation in which I would consider Communism is when I'm forced to fight a war during my democracy-development stage. Then Communism is probably the best thing to do, as I would want to keep science up as well.
    I'd say Democracy is the best government, it gives you the most bonuses.
    But in some occasions Fundamentalism is better: when you have to fight a big war, especially when you're not in much need of new technologies.
     
  3. talismanjayuk

    talismanjayuk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Canterbury, Kent, England
    I been reading all the threads on this and theres alot of good comments.

    once i get to communism, i stick with it - I find it gives the best balance. fundy and demo are opposite ends of the scale - both very good if you are playing a particular way or have the patience to frame of mind to either : build, build & build military (fundy) or precisely manage your cities and discover techs extra quick (demo).

    Commie allows me to be flexible and gives me the chance to react to different situaitons as they arrise.

    If i am attacked i can react quickly enough and produce enough units quick enough to respond. My population arent bothered by amount of military units either and i can make many.

    Its tech discoveries rate is good enough to keep me either in the lead or at least never far behind. In all the games i have played from chieftan through to king, i have never lagged more than a 2 or three techs behind the A1 - and that was rare (and even then i can use diplomats to steal techs)

    Im no expert but it just seems that communism is the best balanced and doesnt require a minute attention to detail - pretty much your cities can more or less run themselves.

    jc:band:
     
  4. Hookah

    Hookah Hand of NOD

    Joined:
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    Location:
    hacking into your computer
    I might try a power democracy instead of fundamentalism and I'm _definately_ using caravans
     
  5. Padfoot9

    Padfoot9 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Illinois
    I'm militant also, and I find fundamentalism to be the best government. Sure the science sucks, but when you're kicking people's butts to win you only need enough. My best game: Vikings killed 7 civs under fundementalism before 1900. I do have to admit, I was in chieftain(still kind of new to the game), but still it was pretty good for me.
     
  6. rponton

    rponton Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2003
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    109
    ...whoa, my head hurts. I just read this whole post. My 2 cents: feel what you want about any government you choose, but I am currently running a game at prince level. I have Democracy, over70 cities, control of 50% of the game board, A finished spaceship waiting for launch (i was finished in 1840), I'm currently researching future tech 9, and I have ~24,000 gold units. I gain so much money in trade, my luxuries are set at 90%, and 65 of my cities are currently celebrating we love the ____ Day. No other civ on the board will sign a strategic alliance with me, because they all say I am a "Decadent" empire. I have about 45 military units outside of cities, to create unit walls to keep opposing diplomats out of my cities. I've got spies all over the map. My government has never fallen, I raced to Democracy, and set it up right away. I have 4 of the ancient wonders, 4 of the renaissance, 5 of the industrial, and all 7 modern. I get another future tech every 2-3 turns.

    Show me another government that can do that.

    Oh yeah, I'm running a small board quick game ( that explains why I have so few cities.)
     
  7. Terrapin

    Terrapin Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2003
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    505
    Celebrations are really the thing which puts rep/dem ahead of the crowd in my book. Even if your basic strategy is militant, taking a few turns here and there to make your cities grow will spike your power levels and put you out of reach of the ai's at any difficulty level.
     
  8. Nylan

    Nylan Characters Welcome

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    I would have to say that I'm part of this Communist "fan club" as well. I may not use it 24/7, but it is the best war government, and I am THE War Mongerer.:soldier::shotgun::ar15::rocket::rocket2::tank:
    :mwaha:
     
  9. Patches97

    Patches97 The Slave-driver

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    um,I don't know.
    Have any of you people ever tried fundamentalism?:shotgun:
    It's the best! Because

    1. No one is ever unhappy
    2. And free fanatics
      [/list=1]

      Democracy, in my book, has nothing to do with anything.
      Because
      Every five turns, you have to pick a new gov.:sniper:

      Communism, ehhh, it's okaay.

      Now monarchy, whoa, don't even get me started on monarchy.
      :ar15::ripper: :rocket2: :rocket:
     
  10. rponton

    rponton Warlord

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    If you're changing gov.s every 5 turns with democracy, you're doing something very wrong. I use demo, it never fails...
     
  11. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    My democracies have never fallen!! (exept for scns.) They are very easy to maintaine, just have Bach's and Mike's! Keep your lux at 20% (preferably 30%) and know the strategy. Use howitzers for offensivs, but only attack once, capture the city, then move the howies inside your new city. Also, a very useful tactic is building "Military Bases". These use Bach's and will not work without it. Step one: find or create site with 3 hills. 2: mine and railroad two of the hills. 3: begin mining third hill, then build on it. 4: build factory in city, and have citysens working hills. 5: make sure that city doesn't grow past size two, and if you don't have Hover build Ncl. Plant. 6: home any units that will create unhappyness in such cities, especialy your navy.
    The key to demo is building the best units. There is no point watsoever in building destroyers, and do not build any bombers. Use vet units, and tons of sth. fighters. Slowly disband your riflemen once you have labour union and replace them with vet meck infantry (optional). A very usefull thing is that demo is imune to bribery, and when you get to emp. and diety the comp will start bribing. I do not normaly concor the world, but it can be done with demo, look at the D+2 succesion game for proof of that. I can understand how you may think that fundy is the best, I thought so too and would recomend it to begginers, but I tried Demo (After playing WWII as Allies) and I have used it ever since.
    As for the person who said that republic is almost as good as demo, I guess that you don't have large sprawling empires, and these are what demo is for. An Industrialized democracy can hold its own in a war, and will probably be far superior in techs, and therefore have better units.
     
  12. Patches97

    Patches97 The Slave-driver

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    um,I don't know.
    Democracy is NOT the best.:mad:

    PACH97 :D


    :sniper: :ripper:
     
  13. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Mayhap your democracies fall if you swich directly form fundy without any prep at all. I would consider this a mistake that will hensforth be known as MISTAKE NUMBER FIVE. (I don't think that it is the greatist posible mistake in civ, but it is pretty darn close.) If you play fundy, I would assume that you buld Bach's anyway, I would not turndown 2 more gold per city, and I don't think that you would too... If your going to play demo, you need to prep right from the start, and swich to rep along the way (after Mikes), this will give you some basic demo strategy without so many problems (or benifets). If you constantly have war campaines over seas, try delaying them untill later in the game, where your teck will win you the war with half the units, and you will be fully prepaired.
     
  14. Nylan

    Nylan Characters Welcome

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    Democracies are for the experienced player. If you can master Democratic warfare, you are a true CF. And fundy? Only if you are planning to be the least advanced civ in the game (Unless you are doing POWER FUNDAMENTALISM, which is completely different).
     
  15. Patches97

    Patches97 The Slave-driver

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    um,I don't know.
    What do you mean?











    POWER FUNDAMENTALISM???:sleep:
     
  16. Nylan

    Nylan Characters Welcome

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    POWER FUNDAMENTALISM is Fundy in which you taise luxuries until every city celebrates WLTPHD (We love the high priest day). After that, lower taxes to 30% or whatever will keep them happy and GO BLOW STUFF UP.
    MWAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!:mwaha:
     
  17. Patches97

    Patches97 The Slave-driver

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    um,I don't know.
    your evil!!



    I guess i'll ty that



    hay did you notice I'm
    The Slave-Driver?
     
  18. Patches97

    Patches97 The Slave-driver

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    um,I don't know.
    Hay you know that, Originally posted by, thingy? how do you get that??? Padfoot9 on this page he used, it how do I get it??:confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  19. temurleng

    temurleng Another Dumb Message

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
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    Location:
    North of the South Pole
    I've always hated :mad: democracy for two reasons-
    1) every unit costs a shield. at least the less advanced govs allow me to have some free units. for someone who builds a massive army (usually cuz at least half the world is allied against me), no free units is a huge problem.
    2)general unhappiness, whether it's cuz units outside the city or the mere existence of bombers (a huge advantage i dont like not to use). i can never seem to get the luxury high enough before anarchy (and gov collapse) happens.

    I've always preferred Funda. :D I'd build my army as usual, nothing different from what someone suggested for a democracy ("A (small) amount of high tech units" by Simon Darkshade) but then build HORDES of Fanatics. Their uses depends on the opponent. A lower-tech-level enemy, and I can attack cannons, catapults, horse-mounted units, archers, legions... A higher enemy, and bombers, cruise missiles, ships in cities, nukes are all fair game. I use them alot for cannon fodder- pillage the area around a city (if I don't want it), build fortresses around a region to cut it off from the rest of their empire and stock each fortress with 20 fanatics. Only a very determined attack will break through that. The best part, by attacking, the computer exposes bombers and forces ground units to repair themselves, giving me at least a few turns to finish off the units and/or capture the cities. Sometimes, if I don't want a city, I'll just capture it, sell city walls (if they're present) then stock up the city with fanatics. :suicide: Virtually assures the city will be destroyed (obviously based on power of opponent) and drains resources of enemy. The best part of funda is NO corruption or unhappiness. I even get we love the king sometimes. I have one game where I make so much money, I buy all my improvements from scratch. My economy in funda is always great.

    Lately, though, I've been trying Democracy. Had one game where I was a long thin empire with enemies on either end. Successfully fought them both off, captured some of their cities and advanced WAY faster than them, to the point where they had just started replacing their elephants with knights while I was throwing Riflemen and artillery at them. There were so many disadvantages (no railroads, so units often had to sit outside cities for a turn; few trade routes) and yet I still whooped both their arses. (Wonder what Democracy-led war would be like with some of the suggestions offered here? :hmm: )

    Moral- Dem aint half bad, even for a Funda lover. It takes a little planning, but the tech advantage is great. hell- i may just use it to get to Funda gov tech faster. i already aim for democracy for the statue of liberty (why waste time going for the dead-end funda tech?).
     

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