Scripted historical events in 1.17.0 (Unleashing the worst of the humanity thread)

Vulpeo

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 27, 2023
Messages
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So I'd like to get started with the definitions. The scripted historical events in DoC are the AI events such as Alexander the Great's conquests, the Roman expansion, the Mongol expansion and many more, all of which take place at the specific turns to make the gameplay much more historically accurate and immersive. This is my most favorite part of the mod as while playing for certain civilization (or civilizations as I can jump from one to another as they spawn) I can also be an observer of the historical events as they happen. So far I had no issues with how it worked until I tried 1.17.0 and this is where the problems began to emerge. Now, firstly I'd like to mention just one issue that was in previous versions as well
1. No Achaemenid conquests event.
This thing always felt like necessary to be in DoC yet it was never implemented yet. Persia spawns at 850 BC and then most of the game sits idle until Alexander's Empire event happens after the collapse of which Persia is going for expanding westwards for a bit, becoming Sassanid Empire. What I feel is absolutely necessary here is to have the Persian expansion event to take place at 550 BCE turn, having Persia declare war on Phoenicia, Babylonia and Egypt (And also Greece if the Greeks managed to capture Ankara before the event) and giving them enough forces to eliminate all of them or conquer the most of their cities. This would help to form an AI Achaemenid Empire before the Greeks come in with Alexander and steamroll everything.
Now, to the issues that are unique and specific to my most recent playthrough of the 1.17.0 version. The gameplay strategy that I decided to use is to jump from one important civilization to another as they spawn in in order to make them do what they're supposed to do historically. After Babylonia I went after playing Rome, creating a more less accurate Roman Empire, then switching onto Byzantium and basically recreating Justinian's Empire, holding out until the Russian spawn and then creating a Kyivan Rus' as them instead of Muscovy by migrating a bit westwards before placing the first city. I was thinking to switch onto the Arabs after Byzantium but it looks like the civilization switch prompt is broken and doesn't get triggered when the Arabs emerge (The same issue was in previous versions of DoC). So, getting to the point:
2. "Very fragile" Turkic expansion
By "very fragile" I mean that the conditions must be very specific for the Seljuk expansion event to take place which would further on lead to the formation of the Ottomans. Not only that but those conditions can very easily be ruined which especially became an issue in my most recent playthrough. Soon after switching onto Russians I noticed how powerful the Arabs got, so powerful that they invaded Turks twice, effectively vassalizing them by the late X Century turns (Marathon speed gameplay with 1500 turns). What happened afterwards was that the Turks were unable to have the Seljuk expansion event triggered as they couldn't decalre war on the Arabs who capitulated them and made them as their vassal state. The Arabs would collapse eventually by the late XII century turns but the Turks were hopelessly stuck in Central Asia, being conquered by the Mongols later on and thus leaving no chances for the Ottomans to spawn. Now to what I think could be done to this part of the gameplay to have this issue fixed. Upon replaying this part of the game I cancelled the capitulation for the Turks on 984 AD turn through the WorldBuilder, and right on the next turn they declared war on Arabs, finally having the Seljuk expansion event triggered. What I think could be done here to solve this issue is to forbid the Arabs or any other major power that could wipe them out at this part of the gameplay to capitulate the Turks so that the event doesn't break.
3. Qazan issue
Now it's not exactly a scripted historical conquests event but it's important in some way nonetheless. Qazan spawns at around 1200 AD to simulate the Volga Bulgaria and later on the Kazan Khanate (which is what pretty much makes it a scripted historical event). The issue right here is that they spawn in as the Barbarian State with only three units and this makes them very defenseless. That would've not been much of an issue if there weren't military units of literally every existing Old World civilization scouting the empty Siberian territories, so and as soon as they see Qazan they instantly attack and capture it very easily. I saw this happening so many times in other versions and mostly these were the Spanish, sometimes French or any other European civilization capturing it. In my most recent playthrough Qazan was captured by the Koreans all of sudden. What I could suggest to fix it is to have Qazan spawn in as an independent city rather than a barbarian one so that they're not at the state of a constant war with everyone, or at very least give them more troops to defend themselves.
4. The Mongols in 1.17.0 are more of a joke
There was no issue with them for me until I played the 1.17.0 version. Reaching the Mongol expansion event as the Russians and then triggering their invasion, I noticed something strange happening which was quite different from the previous versions. The event was triggered but what caught me offguard is how little troops the Mongols had spawned on the Russian territory (I only saw like three stacks of units each only having three-four units). What happens next is that they capture Moscow but then do nothing and sit idle. They try making incursions every now and then as the war continues but as soon as they re-enter my territory they just turn back to Moscow garrison, and basically do these strange movements on loop. This was not how it was in previous versions when the Mongols had way more troops spawned, becoming a serious threat which had always been fun to deal with and being able to conquer half of the Rus' territory, forcing me to hold out in Tver and Novgorod(Saint-Petersburg) until they either move out most of their forces or simply collapse, letting me to recapture the lost territories with an ease. What happened this time is that they turned into a joke in 1.17.0, only being able to capture Moscow which can be easily retaken in the next few turns, which makes the Mongol invasion way less of a fun challenge. What I also think could be necessary is to give Mongols a settler unit in the Astrakhan area once the invasion of Rus' events get triggered so that they could build Astrakhan/Sarai and use it as a stronghold to conduct invasions from there because other than what they capture in Rus' they get no strongholds in Eastern Europe whatsoever. To add to the overall Mongol issue in 1.17.0, noticed that they're no longer capable of toppling China. In every other gameplay in previous versions the Mongols were always managing to topple and collapse China, taking over their territory with an ease, but in my latest 1.17.0 playthrough they just barely manage to capture Khanbaliq which they lose in the next few turns to China that remains strong and whole. They're also no longer able to fully crush the Turks, leaving two cities in Central Asia not taken. The full picture is that the AI Mongols for the most part became much weaker in their expansion event, making them incapable of recreating the Mongol Empire as easily as they kept doing it in previous versions all the time.
The conclusion:
In conclusion, I'm still yet to finish the full 1.17.0 Marathon gameplay which left me with a bit more dissatisfaction in regards of how the historical events turned out to be in comparison to the latest recent version of 1.16.8 or 1.16.9 that I also played. I might have to switch back to one of those and play them, hoping that there would be some fixes done for the 1.17.0 historical events. I still love this game so much and only want it to become better. An unforgettable and easily the best historical experience in all of Sid Meier's Civilization franchise created as a mod.
 
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I have noticed that you would wish things to be more scripted.
 
I have noticed that you would wish things to be more scripted.
I mean, isn't most of DoC and RFC overall about the scripted events in order to make a historical experience? Besides, my remark is less about tightening the game with more of the scripted events but more about fixing and improving the already existing ones such as the weak AI Mongol expansion or defenseless Qazan. The Rus' principalities were one of the most affected, devastated and razed by the Mongols territories alongside Central Asia and China yet the invasion of Rus' in 1.17.0 doesn't feel as much of a challenge anymore as it was in previous recent versions. I don't understand where would the discontent with my message even come from.
 
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First screenshot is a round started from 3000 BC at marathon speed during which I decided to experiment and migrated westwards to found Kyivan Rus instead of Muscovy. Just only three stacks spawned, two four unit and one three unit stack. The second screenshot is the test playthough of the round starting from 600 AD at normal speed. This time no experiments, just straghtforward gameplay as Muscovy. Four stacks spawned this time upon the event trigger, exactly as it's always supposed to happen. A butterfly effect caused by my experiment I guess? Is there a connection between a player not placing the first russian city right away and the Mongol invasion event trigger?
 
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First screenshot is a round started from 3000 BC at marathon speed during which I decided to experiment and migrated westwards to found Kyivan Rus instead of Muscovy. Just only three stacks spawned, two four unit and one three unit stack. The second screenshot is the test playthough of the round starting from 600 AD at normal speed. This time no experiments, just straghtforward gameplay as Muscovy. Four stacks spawned this time upon the event trigger. A butterly effect caused by my experiment I guess? Is there a connection between a player not placing the first russian city right away and the Mongol invasion event trigger?
Also in both screenshots Qazan is captured as usual, by the Koreans on the first one and by the French on the second one.
 
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The Mongols still aren't much interested in at least trying to collapse China. No massively overextended Mongol Empire on the test playthrough too.
 
I mean, isn't most of DoC and RFC overall about the scripted events in order to make a historical experience?
No, I wish there were less of them.
 
Scripted events feel like a last resort solution. Ideally if a particular outcome is desirable it's better if the AI reproduce it on its own by being strong enough at a certain time, etc. This isn't always possible however.
I understand, but it doesn't mean that it now must be used as an excuse to not work on/improve the existing ones anymore. I thought it was obvious enough in my original post where I mostly discussed the already existing AI scripted events.
 
No, I wish there were less of them.
I guess for the most impactful historical events the scripted AI is inevitable, otherwise why would you then implement the Alexander's conquests and many more events if you don't approve them at the very core? The original RFC didn't have any conquest event (Besides only the conquest of Central America and Inca Empire which requires any nation to discover the Native American civilizations first), it was all implemented in DoC by you. Tbh I view them as interesting challenges and I saw you stating that DoC is meant to be more challenging than the vanilla RFC. The medieval era in vanilla RFC is one of the most boring, however the Seljuk and the Mongol conquests give more turbulence and a challenge to overcome during this period for the majority of the Eurasian civilizations in the game.
 
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haha, u got a very funny scenario.

would byzantians perform reformation? safivid empire is gonna be huge, right?

give me the saves!
 
I guess for the most impactful historical events the scripted AI is inevitable, otherwise why would you then implement the Alexander's conquests and many more events if you don't approve them at the very core?
So if you are working off the assumption that I have done things the way they are for a reason. What's the issue?
 
So if you are working off the assumption that I have done things the way they are for a reason. What's the issue?
I explained it extensively in the original post. Although for the Mongol part I'm not sure anymore as seen in my comment above with the screenshots applied. The Qazan issue so far remains quite the big one as it happens every single playthrough and across all the versions of DoC that I ever played. Just a list of suggested improvements for the issues within the already existing scripted AI events system.
I understand why for the Turks it may stay the way it is now, to make each game round unique and not alike each other so that one round does have the Ottomans spawning and the other one doesn't, bringing more variety. In every DoC playthrough I just prefer to always interact with the Ottomans the spawning conditions of which are so dependend on whether the Seljuks would succeed or not. A concept is interesting indeed and giving way for the interesting alternate timelines such as the world without the Ottomans but I'm just not that much of a fan of the alternate history stuff which is one of the reasons why I love DoC as it's the most accurate historical Civilization mod which ever existed.
Don't get me wrong (already did smh), because I do want for the AI to act by themselves as much as you do. I didn't touch upon the late game at all for that very reason although I would have easily suggested to add the "conquest events" for Napoleonic France, Germany during the World Wars and many more. But I'll repeat myself that for such impactful events that affect the spawning conditions for the civilizations or for the conquests that historically left a massive impact for centuries such as the Achaemenid Empire there's simply no other way in my vision.
P.S. if there's no Achaemenid Empire for the Greeks to conquer in the current game then what are the motivations of Alexander the Great within the "DoC lore"?
P.P.S. checked the plans for 1.18 thread and saw you setting plans for adjusting the scripted historical events. If that's so then what's the problem with my recommendations in the first place if all this pretty much falls within that line?
 
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I explained it extensively in the original post.
So are you using my design principles as your argument or are you rejecting them? You seem to be flip flopping between those two positions depending on whatever is more convenient.
 
So are you using my design principles as your argument or are you rejecting them? You seem to be flip flopping between those two positions depending on whatever is more convenient.
I'm not flip flopping? Show me where I did? Do you read all of my replies or only selectively the parts that you may drag onto and pull out of the context to represent my stance as invalid?
 
I'm not flip flopping? Show me where I did? Do you read all of my replies or only selectively the parts that you may drag onto and pull out of the context to represent my stance as invalid?
You seem to be trying to extend the dialogue to the point where the main topic of the thread is forgotten and no longer being discussed. Can I ask you please to go point by point explaining the issues with the original thread post instead of evading it?
 
otherwise why would you then implement the Alexander's conquests and many more events if you don't approve them at the very core?
Here you are arguing as if my design choices are in agreement with what you are looking for. In other places you want to have something completely different. That's inconsistent. If you want something else than I want then please be honest about it.
 
Here you are arguing as if my design choices are in agreement with what you are looking for. In other places you want to have something completely different. That's inconsistent. If you want something else than I want then please be honest about it.
I'm not offering anything different, everything remains in line within your scripted AI historical events concept. Achaemenid Empire - a mere expansion of the existing concept by adding one more conquest event. The Seljuk expansion event was mentioned within the line of the idea of having it happening independently from the external factors by either eliminating the capitulation for the Turkic civilization so that they'd never be puppeted and would always be capable to declare war on the Arabs. The Qazan issue is all about whether it should be a barbarian/independent city or have more units at the very least in order to be able to defend itself. The Mongols complaint is about the strange issue that occured during my playthrough of the 1.17.0 version which was complicated by my experiment with the Rus', although as for China the Mongols are still incapable of toppling it despite my experiments. I have no idea how much more clearly I should explain my stance to be heard and understood right away, I'm basically repeating myself at this point yet still no understanding of what I'm trying to say throughout the whole thread.
 
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