SE vs CE nuances

[vicawoo]

Some games, I say I'm going to practice my SE. Here's some problems/advantages I found.

SE can be very restricted without civil service.
Situation: you want to run SE on grasslands. You have no rivers. Not happening. Similar problems when you're settled near the end of a river or a lake. So if you can grow large like mehmed, reconsider a pure SE.

BTS: you can lightbulb alphabet. Considering that was oracle worthy, that's awesome.

Warlords: you can lightbulb mathematics for an old fashioned CS slingshot. Only recommended if you have something like a gold resource or are on lower difficulty levels or are philosophical.

Pyramids is huge, but forget about a strong axe rush. And don't think you're going to steal it if there are a lot of AI. And if you're going pure SE, you can skip democracy/printing press and go for biology.

 

[Bast]

I'm trying SE with Pericles and maybe Suleiman next. If you're not philosophical don't try SE? Maybe? I'm new to the whole SE thing.

 

[mnf]

I started a game with Gandhi and said to myself, "I'm going to try out an SE this time!" ---and ended up rolling a map like this:



Oh yay.

I ended up cottaging again.

 

[Carnage04]

I'm trying SE with Pericles and maybe Suleiman next. If you're not philosophical don't try SE? Maybe? I'm new to the whole SE thing.

Philosophical is helpful, but not utterly necessary. GP Production is not the only benefit of SE....the Beakers or Gold you get out of specialists in a properly configured SE city is probably the most impressive aspect. Lightbulbing techs from GP is real nice early in the game, but later on those 2000 beakers towards a 6000 beaker tech just isn't all that thrilling. That City of yours cranking out several hundreds beakers a turn is.

 

[Defiant47]

I started a game with Gandhi and said to myself, "I'm going to try out an SE this time!" ---and ended up rolling a map like this:

Oh yay.

I ended up cottaging again.

It is heresy to run an SE as Gandhi!!!

Philosophical - ultra SE trait!
Spiritual - SE trait (Caste System while having Slavery)... if you have a leader that's spiritual/somethingelse, then it's very capable to run an SE.

 

[DaveMcW]

If you don't get the Pyramids, CE Ghandi is still better.

 

[mnf]

Does running an SE always involve short drops into Slavery (5 turns) to whip away unhappiness? I've always thought you could just stay at Caste System.

Also it almost sounds like the Pyramid is a must for SE in the sense that if you don't get it, don't bother running specialists and just go CE?

I was under the impression (don't know from where) that basically one can "tool" a civilization to be either mainly SE or mainly CE and achieve more or less the same things, maybe at different periods. But it's starting to look like an SE is highly situational, while CE has more of a guaranteed performance.

 

[Percy]

Does running an SE always involve short drops into Slavery (5 turns) to whip away unhappiness? I've always thought you could just stay at Caste System.

You can, but sometimes, for small cities with enough food, and not enough worker-power to plant workshops (not mentioning the fact you don't necessarily have the bonuses from Guilds and Chemistry), you wish you could whip a granary or something. Spiritual allows you to do that on a large scale (to whip Courthouses for example), only losing 5 turns of Caste System, instead of losing two turns of anarchy in addition.

Also it almost sounds like the Pyramid is a must for SE in the sense that if you don't get it, don't bother running specialists and just go CE?

I was under the impression (don't know from where) that basically one can "tool" a civilization to be either mainly SE or mainly CE and achieve more or less the same things, maybe at different periods. But it's starting to look like an SE is highly situational, while CE has more of a guaranteed performance.

That's because you read DaveMcW's posts =D
Now don't get me wrong, i've used the search function to find threads and posts by Dave, and i've found them very, very interesting and elightening. It's just that he really doesn't like SE, or at least thinks that a CE is much better. But other, very good players, don't share this view. Just give it a try for yourself =)

 

[mnf]

The problem is, I don't know how to get started with an SE.

I think I'll try something I read from a thread somewhere. Just let the city grow at +2 and put any food beyond that into specialists. Then farm everything and run merchants to pay for maintenance.

I also have this problem of getting used to the slider percentage instead of knowing how many turns for a tech is reasonable, or how many beakers per turn at different eras is good, etc.

Cottages are simple, just lay it down and ignore them, there's nothing else I can do with them. I must have gotten lazy playing CEs; with a SE, I'm always feeling like I'm behind the AIs, and the science always seem too little, there's never enough real Gold to pay my expenses, etc. I become paranoid when I run specialists.

Lack of knowledge generates fear. I have never felt these words to be so true.

 

[Slash47]

People seem to think that in an SE, you need to run specialists in EVERY city, but that's not at all true; the beauty of an SE is that you can have 3 cities that do all the research for you. The other cities only need granary + forge + courthouse (+ barracks, stables etc) and then they can just spam wonders/troops for you!

Then when you've conquered some (2-3) other civs, you're sure to have some other high-food cities. Or you can just keep their cottages and go for a hybrid (which is the way to go really).

Also, people should settle their GP more often...

SE =

 

[Slash47]

oops.......

 

[DaveMcW]

SE is all about controlling the game from start to finish. Skilled players can get very impressive results with it against AIs or lesser players.

CE is better for inexperienced players or games where your opponents are close to your skill level.

 

[LionQ]

The problem is, I don't know how to get started with an SE.

...

Checked this out yet?

 

[FrancisMarion]

I think the SE vs CE debate in terms of which is better is ultimately academic for anything other than multiplayer.

In single player the environment is as competitive as you want it to be thus you can use w/e strat you enjoy more.

For me personally, even if it's easier to win with CE, it's so boring I can never make it through a game. Whereas with SE, I almost always enjoy myself.

Currently I'll been playing around with the Mega Capital where I settle every single GP and GG in the capital. Pyramids are necessary for it to be really effective, but one city can almost carry your entire empire, and the best part about settled great people is that unhappiness has no affect on them.

One of the issues I've had with BTS is adjusting to the new War Weariness (as a result of longer wars), but the Mega Capital can keep your research at reasonable levels even if everybody is unhappy.

 

[mnf]

Thanks LionQ, I've actually read that before, but haven't gone through all the sample games. Do you know of an SG that is playing a mainly SE game but does not use say either the Pyramid or leaves out the Great Library and does not actively go to conquer these wonders?

 

[vicawoo]

Ahem, I never said anything about which is better, because they have advantages in different situations. Also, there's no huge reason why you can't build cottages in an SE.

I am saying SE has irrigation problems, and that shouldn't be neglected. Sometimes my capital is by a fresh water lake with plain tiles, or those annoying 1 tile length "rivers", or there are forests I want to keep, so farming is hard. Libraries cost a lot early, so sometimes it's worth sticking with some cottages to fuel your research till you get over the hump.

Also, I stupidly assumed at one point that SE is less beaker efficient for pop (1-2 farms versus one cottage), but I actually conclude that it can wield a higher population cap. Like you could 20 farms and have a size 40ish city running 21 specialists.

 

[mnf]

Just as I go to practice setting up an SE, I get to settle a city in a place like this:



Well, it looks like I'm not going to be running specialists here for quite a while. Thebes also look like it's going to be cottages only.

Perhaps I'm going to leave all the grassland jungles in for the National Park. I'm philosophical so the Oxford will come in here. That'll be six free specialists (and maybe hope for one more jungle spread to make it seven). The food already lets me work all mined hills and resources with a surplus. I'm probably looking at this city running say fourteen specialists after Biology? Hmmm. I probably have to clear out all the jungles anyway, for this city to function properly before National Park...then perhaps Oxford and Wall Street, for when these commerce resources all turn into gold.

Back on topic, here I am 59/turn at 1AD (of which the scientists only account for 15 I think), lost the Pyramids (didn't even get to start it), but has a good chance to get the Great Library. These numbers look so sad, I don't know why, I just feel this is not enough. And this is only Noble!

It looks like during these early years, specialist cities are either going to work all food for science, or run no specialist and work all production, or even run merchants for the maintenance. On the other hand, non-specialist cities can usually keep some production even at these early years.

I think I'll spend more time reading no-cottage SGs before I go on with this game.

 

[LionQ]

Thanks LionQ, I've actually read that before, but haven't gone through all the sample games. Do you know of an SG that is playing a mainly SE game but does not use say either the Pyramid or leaves out the Great Library and does not actively go to conquer these wonders?

No, I don't.

 

[Carnage04]

Does running an SE always involve short drops into Slavery (5 turns) to whip away unhappiness? I've always thought you could just stay at Caste System.

Also it almost sounds like the Pyramid is a must for SE in the sense that if you don't get it, don't bother running specialists and just go CE?

I was under the impression (don't know from where) that basically one can "tool" a civilization to be either mainly SE or mainly CE and achieve more or less the same things, maybe at different periods. But it's starting to look like an SE is highly situational, while CE has more of a guaranteed performance.

The Pyramids are really nice for a SE, but they can be pretty hard to get. If I start out with stone in the area and a city kicking out a decent amount of hammers I will try for it but if I can't get it I'll shrug it off and move on. The Great Library (in my opinion) is a LOT easier to get. Up through Emperor I would say that unless I get completely decimated by Barbarians early on....I can get GL 100% of the time.

I'd say that the SE has a "Guaranteed" performance. If you have a bunch of really poor food tiles surrounding all of your cities I gaurantee you that trying to run an SE is going to perform poorly. If you have some decent cities and concentrate on getting your SE up and running I gaurentee that it will perform well.

I think the biggest hump to get over is looking at the tiles around your SSC and deciding that you are going to assign specialists instead of working those two 1F 4H tiles that would make the city pretty nice for production. When I started playing the SE I often would make that mistake....I would think "How could that stupid little scientist do me more good right now than working that meaty production tile. Maybe I'll pull it later..." and my SE would tank.

 

[mnf]

I'm starting to think SE vs CE isn't that important. Thinking in terms of cities, then we can say a commerce city that has low food will just run a "CE", and commerce cities that has high food can run an "SE". Of course city placement will dictate which one you're going to run, and which one you're going to run will in turn dictate city placement; but there's no point getting tied up in thinking every science/commerce city needs to be either cottages or specialists.

It's funny though how I find myself getting low food land the majority of the time. The capital may have decent food, and only sometimes get an abundant of food, but the land around is usually lacking food. I often can't run an SE even if I wanted to.