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Sea resources are incredibly under-tuned

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by homan1983, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    One of the biggest problems is the core yield of coastal tiles: 1food 1 commerce.

    This means with a fish, and fishing boats we get 3f 1g
    A crab is even worse: they give only gold boost (was it 2g?), so WITH FISHING BOATS its 2f 3g or so.

    Compare and contrast this to land resources:

    Stone on grassland gives 2f 2p
    Pasture is 3f 2p
    On robot's vod, one of the tiles has 5 food without improvements:



    Hills have even better yields, they have a base 3 yields (1f 2p for plains hills or 2f 1p for normal hills), so resources on hills are even better by 1yield. A forrested hill has 1 food 3 production unimproved.

    Coastal cities already are disadvantaged. They get less housing, they have less land for districts and workable tiles. Sea is also less relevant since naval power doesn't allow them to take cities with a harbour district but build inland. Their only hope is to work resources in the sea.

    How can a civ starting on coast compete with another civ that starts with unimproved tiles giving 5 food.

    Also lighthouse now gives +1food +1 gold to the city, not per sea tile. So the situation remains dire.

    I hope they do a balance pass on it. Is there something I'm missing guys?
     
    grandad1982 likes this.
  2. racha

    racha Warlord

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  3. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Well, one more argument for sea tiles and settling cities on coast being relatively useless.
     
  4. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Yep, we've been saying this for months. At least in BNW a city with 3+ sea resources could do very well once lighthouse+fishing points+sea port where up and running. It was an investment, but eventually a reasonable payoff. Now? No such thing.

    I would suggest making all the harbour buildings give extra food/gold to resources as well as to the city tile. Maybe also give builders the ability to put fishing boats on any sea tile, including none resource. These "empty" fishing boats would have no yield but give +1 food (or +2 gold for crabs maybe) to adjacent sea tiles. The idea being that with work you could have a few highly productive sea tiles, but most would not be worth working.
     
  5. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Who says cities need to work bonus tiles to be good? That's CiV logic.

    We have to play VI to see how the new coast city mechanics work out, but the logic now appears to be:

    Early era cities won't be working a ton of tiles because of housing caps. Harbors are good at kicking out gold, boats, and admirals, the things you want for conquest. Meanwhile you can specialize the city with one or two inland districts.

    Later era cities are about farm adjacency and housing via tile appeal, and naval cities have an advantage in the second part, and with breathtaking neighborhoods will be excellent at districts/projects rather than at production.

    Asking the game to balance naval bonus tiles with land bonus tiles would not fit with the adjacency mechanics, and also have no yet-apparent effect on making coastal cities more useful.
     
  6. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    There are other advantages I think are understated. Starting with the Sailing Eureka and the ability to get all the other water based Eurekas much faster. Sure you can build a Harbor, or settle your second city on the coast, but speed wise it's very slow. Seeing how important it is to meet civs and citystates, I think if you can Freshwater settle on a coast, you won't regret it. I saw one streamer whose start was notoriously slow on an Island map because he decided for a slightly better spot but off the coast.
     
  7. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    But this is kind of sad isn't it?
    Even if the resources gave the same yields as land tiles, that still would mean once those resources are worked a coastal city would fall behind.

    The fact that even the resources are, in every case inferior to every resource on land just seems to strange to me.

    We know this build is old, perhaps before balance passes are made (which happens towards the end of a production cycle). Is it possible the game would ship like this?
     
  8. fmm

    fmm Warlord

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    I think we've seen plenty of sea activity so far in the streams (though not in every game) and Harbors seem like a very important district in that they generate trade routes as well as production.
     
  9. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    What does harbour have to do with coastal cities and sea-resource tiles?

    Also Harbour doesn't really generate production, it gives gold adjacency.
     
  10. fmm

    fmm Warlord

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    The shipyard and the seaport (buildings in the harbor) both provide production.
     
  11. isau

    isau Deity

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    The balance is certainly mysterious. From the look of things, ocean without an improvement is actually worse than either Tundra or Desert, because when you place a District tile yields are wiped out anyway. Ocean tiles for the most part can't accept Districts, exception being the Harbor. But the Harbor doesn't seem to particularly reward having lots of ocean tiles. Ideally you just want the 1 ocean tile for the Harbor, and maybe 1 or 2 more for the ocean wonders. Maybe I'm missing something and maybe they'll revisit it. But it's definitely strange.
     
  12. indradiva

    indradiva Warlord

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    Well, there are those seaside resort improvements that give you tourism, so there's actually a reason to settle on the coast.
     
  13. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    No, those are a reason to settle near the coast, not on it.
     
    Krajzen likes this.
  14. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Do they? I was under the impression that Coastal Cities, like River-Cities, get full Fresh Water bonus.
     
  15. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    They get costal water which only give +1 housing instead of +3.
     
    Ryika likes this.
  16. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Coastal cities get a water bonus to housing, but it is less than sites by Rivers, Lakes, or Oases.
     
    Ryika likes this.
  17. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Ah, I see, thanks for correcting. Not sure how I managed to falsely memorize that. ^^
     
  18. Teproc

    Teproc King

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    So, in CiV you almost never wanted to settle one tile away from the coast. Did you have a problem with that ?

    It seems more balance here in this sense : I think you'll mostly want to be one tile away, but for some things (naval production, reaching farther away sea resources), you'll sometimes want to be actually coastal.
     
  19. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    That's what it seems like, yes.
     
  20. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    It seems like sea tiles are essentially another form of desert and tundra, except you can't place districts, like you said.

    It would be interesting to see someone perform the math of whether it's worth it to lose basic land tiles to settle closer to the sea to pick up actual sea resources. It would be situational of course. Probably the smaller you expect your city to be, the more likely it's okay to settle closer to the sea.
     

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