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Seafaring is Superfluous: A No Ships Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. Catwalk

    Catwalk Warlord

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    Done :sleep: save uploaded to the report post above.
     
  2. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I will play one of the next days....had no time to look at the game yet...
     
  3. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    I was just thinking, Darwin's Voyage involved a ship so we shouldn't build it, nevermind the efficiency question.

    It's probably silly to ask, but since we have the option now, is it better to build a skeleton railnet first or go ahead with the massive farming project first? If we spend 2-3 turns making rails first, we can deliver many more vans while farming, but if we farm first, we can celebrate sooner and have higher payouts while covering the island with rails. Of course, we don't have much worth delivering at this time anyway.. I'm a kid in a candy store here, so much good stuff available. I know I'd be very tempted to build rails first, and I'm sure they would be mostly wasted during the farming turns.
     
  4. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    If we want to start building railroads, I'd build them along the critical paths for our trade routes. Since we have roads everywhere, we should be able to use the goto command to find the locations, at least until we get some rails down.

    Since we no longer have a wonder cancelling tech that we can't research beyond, I'd say farming is slightly less urgent than it was previously. It is still something we should put effort into, but it shouldn't be an all consuming goal. Of course, railroads are only useful if we actually have units that are using them, which doesn't make a railnet a very high priority; most of their value would come from the extra trade they would add to cities.

    As an aside, I notice that there are engineers transforming the forests around Salzburg. Personally, I would actually prefer to keep them as forests, but, if you want to transform them, it is actually quicker to irrigate them to plains and then make the transformation.
     
  5. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    Finished my turns and will only mention the most important things:

    1580: Consription->Industrialization
    1590: Industrialization->Corporation
    1600: -
    1610: Corporation->Genetic Engineering
    1620: Genetic Engineering->Refining
    1630: Refining->Steel
    1640: -
    1650: Steel->Combustion / Cure for Cancer build
    1660: Combustion->Electronics
    1670: Kells complete Sun Tzu / Lisbon celebrates / Electronics->Automobile

    I started a lot of universities which should be changed to superhighways after the discovery of Automobile

    Railroad system is almost finished. South to north is finished but north to south should be checked (goto funcion). I think there are some parts which still need a railroad.

    Almost every city has marketplace, library and supermarket. Only the youngest cities should have them (when they are the right size).

    I decided not to research communism but we could do it and build United Nations and get missing techs (is allowed IIRC).

    The next may player can decide what he wants. There is enough money to RB several things but I let it grow to RB superhighways.....
     

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  6. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    Four score and four years ago earlier today, President Magic Gorter passed a fine empire into my care. We were struggling a little financially, but that's to be expected of a one-island nation. Our production capabilities were sufficient for our needs at the time, but with a space race against the clock coming up and the big trade theory unavailable, my administration directed the development of a shield producing juggernaut. The low value of freight can now be offset by the speed of its production. The historical record follows:

    turn 0 1670 - oil freight rushed nearly everywhere oil is produced. Some workers shifted to hit 10 shields per turn.
    Egyptians begin SoL.
    turn 1 1680 - nothing interesting
    Prague, Hamburg celebrate. Automobile>Mass Production.
    turn 2 1690 - 7 superhighways rushed.
    Mass Production>Atomic Theory. A few superhighway cities celebrate. Holstebro demands oil.
    turn 3 1700 - Issus oil Holstebro 402. Washington oil Issos 478. 5 more superhighways rushed.
    Americans begin Darwin. Atomic Theory>Chivalry.
    turn 4 1710 - Boston cloth Prague 164. Holstebro oil Cannae 462.
    Americans develop Conscription. Chivalry>Leadership.
    turn 5 1720 - Brandenburg beads Lisbon(n) 107. Atlanta oil Bremen 670. Salzburg dye Buffalo 306. 7 more superhighways built.
    Leadership>Tactics.
    turn 6 1730 - Munich oil SanFran 490. Bonn oil Atlanta 637. Verona oil Naples 402. Bremen oil Brandenburg 574.
    Tactics>Machine Tools. Pollution near Holstebro.
    turn 7 1740 - Prague oil Chicago 240. Cremona oil Bonn 408. Genes oil Cannae 250. Final superhighway built.
    Machine Tools>Recycling. Holstebro mass transit cleans up the city.
    turn 8 1750 - Cannae oil Nuremberg 467. Capua oil Cremona 506. Tax rate 8.2.0, I want a few turns of pure gold while vans make up science.
    Egyptians abandon SoL. Recycling>Miniaturization. Pollution near Boston.
    turn 9 1752 - Brandenburg oil Dortmund 455. Issos gems Washington 510. Lisbon oil Salzburg 336. Stuttgart gold Holstebro(n) 120, unblocks beads supply and changes demand to coal (silk) copper. Boston cloth Hamburg 180. Berlin silver Philadelphia 424. Salzburg oil Capua 478. Dortmund wine New York 407, beaker box full.
    Egyptians begin SoL. Miniaturization>Computers. Berlin builds Hoover. First factories built. Barbarian frigate off Buffalo.
    turn 10 1754 - Capua dye Atlanta 456. Naples oil Atlanta 551. Chicago oil Naples 504. Nuremberg oil Naples 478. Verona wine Naples 287. Leipzig cloth Bremen(n) unblocks coal+silver demand, not supply. Hambourg oil Atlanta 616. Cremona oil Bonn 408. Beaker box full, 7110 gold, spent down to 2655. 13 freight of varying quality lying about.

    To my successor, should you choose to continue this plan of development:
    Prague, the first city processed, should discover computers.
    Holstebro is producing Suffrage, but should be changed to SETI. The zoom to home city trick should work when Lisbon produces its sewer system next turn, and enough gold has been left to buy SETI immediately. The immediate purchase is slightly less useful with zero science rate, and the next president is welcome to adjust that.

    Many cities are producing factories, offshore platforms, and recycling centers. There is a pollution issue during this growth phase, but we have 47 settlers working on the farming project and can spare a few for instant cleanup.

    Speaking of farming, that goal is coming along nicely. I would anticipate the next 10 turns seeing the completion of the project and organized celebration beginning again. Some celebrations happened even at 20% luxuries; Holstebro is now size 29. I did not build many more rails, I figure we'll cover the island with them once farming is done and engineers are bored anyway.

    View attachment FR_A1754.SAV
     
  7. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I think it's Professor's turn next, then mine.

    The Americans are at Icy, so we might want to consider beefing up defenses. Speaking of defenses, size 12 Buffalo has none, and there is a barb ship near Buffalo. A dip is already ready in San Fran, we might be able to bribe next turn.

    Someone build more offshore platforms and factories... we're getting a tech per turn (or close to it) and we'll have all the techs we need in 15-20 turns. We need to be pumping enough shields and freight for quick completion. I want a landing before 1800. Let's set that as our goal, alright?
     
  8. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    I forgot to mention, the American government fell when the barbs landed, if we want to buy them.
     
  9. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    They were in Demo when I looked at the save... otherwise I would simply have suggested finishing them off. Taking their cities by force is not an option with walls and Conscription. Not until tanks.
     
  10. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Wonderful set of turns by Mackerel.

    I'll probably play the turns sometime this week.

    We have about 23 turns to complete an 1800 landing (plus a couple once the spaceship is launched). We have to research at least 11 techs, and at the same time build up enough funds and freight in order to build the ship in fairly short order. It can probably be done, but I'll have to think a little about things, particularly celebration. Will also have to plan the tech path.

    In order to accomplish this, we'll probably have to sell off buildings for cash when the time comes, and I'll have to think about the cost-effectiveness of factories.
     
  11. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    First Thoughts:
    In order to achieve an 1800 landing, we will need to launch a 15-6-3 spaceship in 1784. That is 15 turns hence. We will need to produce roughly 60 freight for this and for Apollo Program in 11 or 12 turns, to allow for a few turns to accumulate the last few shields in the spaceship parts.
    If I can celebrate at 30% luxuries for a few turns I will, but we are rather short on time, so no massive celebration (and we certainly are not waiting for any more farmland).

    (0) 1754: Reorganize civ for the space race. Switch a few offshore platforms to Universities, and ask myself why a factory was rushed in a city with 8 production. Put a food van into Holstebro to save a few bucks when rushing SETI. Need roughly 3500 beakers per discovery, produce 2866 at 60% without SETI. Produce 2420 at 50%, keep at 60 to be sure extra discovery will occur. Luxuries 30%, taxes 10%.

    (1) 1756: Americans abandon Darwin’s Voyage. American Govt overthrown, 2 barb crusaders destroy Galleon in Buffalo, but don’t take the city. WLTCD. COMPUTERS, begin Flight (only on path tech). Lisbon Bank, zoom to Holstebro to buy SETI for 2120. Holstebro Builds SETI Program. Chicago Factory, Cremona University, Cunaxa Offshore Platform, Brandenburg Factory, Atlanta Offshore Platform, Bonn Factory, Stuttgart University, Bremen University, Boston Factory, Konigsberg Factory, Hambourg Factory. Pollution near Dortmund. FLIGHT, begin Radio. Notice “Transform” orders on engineers, and cancel them. San Francisco – Berlin Wine for 280g. Seems demanded freight are worth delivering (ie, give more than 200g). Brandenburg Dye (d) to Philadelphia for 251 gold. Cologne Gems (d) to Washington for 228g. Washington Copper (d) to Holstebro for 220g. Rush Cannae Factory to 160 shields.

    (2) 1758: Americans begin DV again, change to Republic. Sioux begin SOL. American Rifleman kills barb crusader. Verona gold, Dortmund food, Cologne Salt, Leipzig Beads. Radio, begin Nuclear Fission. Engineers I removed from transformation duty dig mines in 1 turn.

    (3) 1760: We are number 3 in wealth (1361g) and Americans are no. 5. Holstebro Oil, Chicago Copper, Cannae Factory, Issos Food, Naples Food, Brandenburg Food, Salzburg Food, Atlanta Beads, Bonn Food, Nuremburg cloth, Boston Food, Konigsberg cloth, Hamburg Cloth, . NUCLEAR FISSION, begin Nuclear Power. Holstebro Oil to Atlanta for 467g. Chicago Copper (d) to Dortmund for 216g. 23 Freight at end of turn.

    (4) 1762: Freight in: Verona, Chicago, Capua, Cannae, Cunaxa, Dortmund, Cologne, Munich. NUCLEAR POWER, begin Advanced Flight. Pollution near Chicago, Cannae, Boston. Capua copper (d) to San Francisco for 210g. Cannae dye (d) to Atlanta for 208g. 29 Freight at end of turn, 2642g in treasury.

    (5) 1764: Freight in: Holstebro, Chicago, Cannae, Naples, Brandenburg, Atlanta, Bonn, Boston, Konigsberg, Hambourg. ADVANCED FLIGHT, begin Rocketry. Pollution near Issos, Dortmund. Cannae silver (d) to Buffalo for 342g. Atlanta oil (d) to Holstebro for 467g. Luxuries to 10%, taxes 30%.

    (6) 1766: WLTCD cancelled. ROCKETRY, LASER, begin Space Flight. Freight in Verona, San Francisco, Chicago, Cannae, Issos, Dortmund, Salzburg, Cologne, Nuremburg, Heidelburg, . Pollution near Chicago, Naples, Brandenburg, Bonn. San Francisco Wine (d) to Naples for 263g. Holstebro dye (d) to Atlanta for 267g. 45 Freight and 5087 in treasury.

    (7) 1768: Freight in Holstebro, Chicago, Capua, Cannae, Cunaxa, Naples, Brandenburg, Atlanta, Bonn, Stuttgart, Munich, Boston (URANIUM), Konigsberg, Hambourg, Berlin. SPACE FLIGHT, begin Plastics. Put 11 Freight into Cannae for Apollo Program. Have 49 freight left, which is about all that will be needed for a 15-6-3 spaceship. Will switch production to wonders where appropriate, in order to switch to spaceship parts. Boston Uranium (d) to Holstebro for only 384 gold (disappointing, since I expected to get a railroad bonus and Atlanta oil deliveries gave more). Berlin Silver (d) to Buffalo for 217g. Science to 90% and switch taxmen to scientists to speed up discovery of spaceship techs. Have large treasury and lots of freight, and I don’t want to wait. Science box is almost half full, techs cost a little less than 4000, and we will produce 6600 beakers, so we should discover 2 techs next turn. BTW, Holstebro produces 1216 science at 90%. Make Naples to Nuremberg oil delivery (d) (I have critical railroad from Nuremberg to Naples) for 383g.

    (8) 1770: Sioux nearly complete SoL. Sea Barbs (dragoons) attack Buffalo. Freight in Verona, Chicago (URANIUM), Dortmund, Leipzig Washington. PLASTICS, SUPERCONDUCTOR, begin Amphibious Warfare (over Communism, which lowers Cathedrals, and Fundy). Cannae builds APOLLO PROGRAM. Fire most scientists in favour of tax collectors. Science at 60%, taxes at 30%. Chicago Uranium (d) to Cannae for 420g.

    (9) 1772: Egyptians nearly complete Sol. Little Bighorn builds Statue of Liberty, Egyptians abandon. Build various spaceship parts. Chicago Barracks, disorder in Chicago, since I forgot to re-arrange workers after delivery. AMPHIBIOUS WARFARE, begin Fusion Power.

    (10) 1774: More spaceship parts. FUSION POWER, begin Mobile Warfare. Lots of Pollution.

    Notes:
    I’ve left most of the engineers for the next player to use (I cleaned up the pollution, and tried to complete a couple critical path rails, which didn’t work this turn, though it did on previous turns); there isn’t much else to move at the moment. Rushbuilds are left as well.

    We have a 15-3-1 spaceship built, but I didn’t launch it. That is left to the next player. Not much else to say. I doubt we are in danger of losing our capital, so we are now just waiting for the 15 turns to make the landing (or, you can build a bigger spaceship, if you like).

    A couple turnsets ago, I was expecting it to take much longer to get into our current position. Turns out Catwalk made the correct decision in researching Railroad
     

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  12. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Professor...


    Good job.

    I only have a single question: I can understand cities building military units, because we'll need Freights, but even so I don't know why the production is not freight instead of rifles/alpines. I also don't understand why some cities are building banks: we'll have the time to celebrate and to build the needed buildings after our spaceship is launched. We have enough cash to rush freight in every city, so I don't understand why we're not trying to shave some years from our landing date.

    Speaking of cash, since we have SF/Plastics/Superconductor/Fusion Power, I think we could also increase the tax rate instead of science to help with this.
     
  13. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I was thinking that our spaceship was finished, but I didn't launch it in case others thought differently. With that in mind, I switched production to defense and ordinary production. I wasn't really sure what to build, but I realized that even taking a 50% penalty, it was better to produce shields than run a turn of capitalization. All empty cities can be changed to what you like; since my turns were over, I figured that the next person could change things how they like.

    Keep in mind that if you want to cut down the landing date, you will have to check that every turn of production reduces flight time by at least 2 years. This means you will have to build at least a 21-10-3 ship at this point.
     
  14. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Turn 0 (1774 AD, landing 1789 AD with a 15-3-3-1-1-1) 9421g. Rush freights in Washington, Bremen, Stuttgart, Cremona, Gênes, Hamburg, Salamis, Berlin. 8464g left Cologne, Hambourg rush banks, then switch to structural to let the city contribute last 20 shields. Heidelburg, Cunaxa rush components. 6848g left. Dortmund , Bonn, Atlanta, Verona have a bank rushed, switch to structural. Crusader disbanded in Verona beforehand. Rush component in Nuremberg after using a van. Rush component in Issos after disbanding a crusader. 5044g left. Van in Lepizig, rush component. Holstebro gets a van, will finish structural next turn after assigning a scientist to mine. Brandenburg gets a van, will finish structural next turn. Disband crusader in Stuttgart, rush component. Disband crusader in San Fran, rush structural. Disband crusader in Munich, rush structural. 3504g left. Van in Boston after rehoming crusader: Switch to structural, complete next turn. Rehome Engineer so that Konigsberg produces 30 shields per turn. Van in Konigsberg, switch to structural, produced next turn. Van in Capua, switch to component, rush it. Chicago gems (d) to Hamburg: 162g. Disband a crusader in Lisbon, rush a component. Sell Barracks in Chicago. Rush barracks from scratch, switch to Granary, rush it, switch to structural (done next turn) The same is done in Cannae. Heidelburg silk (d) to Buffalo: 376g. Disband a crusader in Salzburg, rush a component. Switch some freight-producing cities to SS component and 4 structurals: rush them. I’ll have a 33-16-3 spaceship next turn. Launch 1776 AD, landing 1781 AD. Eiffel, Manhattan, Suffrage I can build without harm since they do not involve a ship. It will need about 6000g. Bribe Barb dragoon for 102g (becomes NONE) to allow Salzbourg II to be built west of San Fran. Bergen II built NW of Cannae. Venise II built east of Heidelburg. Salzburg II, Bergen II built to size 3 for celebs: Elvis in Bergen II to help. T7L3S0, getting 3200g per turn to buy 3 American cities and 3 wonders, and maybe a few courthouses to boost score, is probably like a better spend of arrows than going for future techs. Rehome a few engineers to allow more even celebrations. Replace every scientist by a taxman, except Holstebro’s.

    Interturn: Egyptians start Mag’s. Americans develop Chivalry. Americans almost done with Darwin’s.

    Turn 1 (1776 AD) Lots of cities celebrate. Many cities structurals and components. Salamis gold, Stuttgart wine. Pollution near San Fran, Naples, Brandenburg, Cologne, Nuremburg, Boston. Cities start Eiffel, Suffrage, Manhattan. AND WE’RE OFF!!! Landing in 1781 AD with a 33-8-8-1-1-1. Clean up all pollution. Rush a sewer in Lisbon, aqueduct in Hamburg. Rush Harbours in last 3 cities. Salamis gold (d) to Salzbourg II: 86g. Stuttgart wine (d) to Bergen II: 110g. Subvert New York for 1560x2g: Get 7 citizens+Pyramids+241g+Cathedral (sold)+Temple+Marketplace+Courthouse+Walls+3 Rifles, 2 of them disbanded for an Aqueduct.

    Interturn: Buffalo finishes Darwin’s. Americans develop Industrialization and Corporation. The Americans steal Fusion Power from us. Declare war on Americans. The Zulus land near Capua: 2 Caravans.

    Turn 2 (1777 AD) Gems van, harbours, a sewer. Pollution near Chicago, Naples, Dortmund, . Cannae dye. NY celebrates, rush aqueduct. Population over 70 million citizens. Bribe Buffalo for 2064g: Get 11 citizens+Darwin’s+345g+Market+Aqueduct+Walls+Harbour+Rifle+Cannon. Technically, the ship already made its trip, so I think bribing Buffalo was allowed. Bribe Philadelphia for 1120g: Get 7 citizens+141g+Market+Walls+Bank+Colosseum (sold)+3 Rifles. Rush a sewer in Cremona, Verona. Rush a truck in Salzburg. Hail Zulus: they ask for Gunpowder, given for the Peace points’ sake, which are oddly still there even with the brief cash war with the Americans. Peace. Give Navigation, Railroad. I like downgrading people’s trade payoffs. Naples gems (d) to Washington: 307g. Build NY to size 8. Rush a bank in Chicago, switch to Mass Transit. Rush Mass Transit in San Fran and Bremen. Build Salzburg II and Bergen II to size 6. Cremona dye (nd) to Bergen II: 41g, only doing it for the trade route. Cannae dye (nd) to Salzbourg II: 64g.

    Interturn: Zulus start Mag’s. Zulus and Americans take exception on each other. St Louis revolts to the Zulus. No van delivery from the Zulus.

    Turn 3 (1778 AD) Some cities mass transits, sewers, trucks. Dortmund wine. Salzburg copper, pollution. Atlanta pollution. Bonn silk. Population over 76 million citizens. Rehome some engineers to allow more growth. Build Venise II to size 3. Salzburg copper (d) to San Fran: 232g. Dortmund wine (d) to Bergen II: 127g. Disband a rifle in NY to help buy a uranium truck. Build Salzbourg II and Bergen II to size 8, rush aqueducts for both cities. Rush the Eiffel Tower in Berlin for 1144g. Build Philly to size 8. Decide to end irrigation projects and to put engineers on standby for pollution control, only areas not farmlanded are in former America and would not make a difference. All Engineers rehomed so as they won’t hamper growth.

    Interturn: Zulus do not deliver.

    Turn 4 (1779 AD) Various trucks, infrastructure, many courthouses. Holstebro builds courthouse, discovers Mobile Warfare. Future Tech not available... my plan goes up in smoke. Robotics chosen next. Pollution near Capua, Cannae, Boston, Konigsberg. Some cities start using (Capitalize) so I can have more money next turn, and have a higher science rate. Taxes after this turn won’t matter since it won’t be spent in time, so T0L3S7 and change all tax collectors in scientists. NY URANIUM van. Berlin builds Eiffel. Population exceeds 82 million citizens. Bonn silk (d) to Cologne: 360g. NY uranium (d) to Naples: 242g, very disappointing. Build Gênes to size 8. Rush the Suffrage in Capua. Need 1100g more to rush Manhattan. Sell walls in Buffalo, NY, Philly, Chicago. Disband a few Engineers to give more food to citizens. Sell Factory in Verona, Hambourg, Cologne, Dortmund. Rush the Manhattan Project for 2100g. Disband Engineer in Naples, sell factory, rush courthouse. Disband engineer in Salzbourg II, rush courthouse. Same in Bergen II. Sell Offshore Platform in Atlanta, Factory in Bonn. Disband engineer and rifle in Philly, rush courthouse.

    Interturn: Egyptians almost done with Mag’s. Zulu city of Zunguin falls to the barbs. Zulus do not deliver.

    Turn 5 (1780 AD) Many courthouses, Capua builds Suffrage, Issos builds Manhattan. Discover Robotics: Start Future Tech 1. T0L10S0. Build Venise II to size 8. Make a last save. Press enter...

    Interturn: Byblos builds Mag’s. Zulus abandon. Zulus do not deliver.

    Final score: 1666 points at 1781 AD. 216%, Frederick the Magnificent. 1780 AD save attached.
     

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  15. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Very nice. I didn't realize we had the ability to get the fastest ship on the next turn.

    So, are there any suggestions for the next game?
    Are there any lurkers that might be interested in playing (perhaps at a lower level)?
     
  16. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    I also did not realized we had the opportunity... I thought it would take more time. But with that being said, the setup for the launch was excellent. And I thought 1800 AD was ambitious...

    As for suggestions, I don't really have any in mind right now, I have to finish GOTM 124 first.
     
  17. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    Great finish guys.....

    It's always amazing to see how fast the last part of a game can go.....

    I have a suggestion for a nice game. We could try replaying GOTM 93.... It's not a standard game and there might be some nice battles (nukes?) in it.
     
  18. Catwalk

    Catwalk Warlord

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    *beams with pride at his random/ignorant decision being a masterpiece!*

    Thanks for the game, I had a lot of fun. I didn't like the restrictions in this one much, but I'm definitely up for another. Non-standard sounds good to me.
     
  19. mackerel

    mackerel Warlord

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    Simply incredible. When I finished my last turn, I was sure we were much farther from being able to launch, enough so that factories and offshore platforms would have time to pay for themselves. It seems that even in this extreme case, with severely limited trade and few cities, it's not worth building the shield enhancing improvements.

    I'm not sure why I rushed a factory in a city with 8 production. I may have meant to switch that to an offshore platform.

    It's also very interesting to see how the computer civs develop without human interference.

    I'm up for anything next.
     
  20. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Prince

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    I guess that would be me! :wavey:

    I would be interested in classic EL (since I don't seem to be able to get it done really early on my own ;)), but since this one was landing, you might prefer something else.
    How about a conquest game without founding cities? Cities being plural, so we found our capital but no cities thereafter. Foreign cities that are taken over can (and should) be kept.
     

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