Seafaring trait and distance corruption

[Predator145]

The Seafaring trait hardcodes starting next to the coast. This encourages a coastal capital. But that also means instead of having a solid ring of core cities around the capital you end up with far more distance corruption. And it's quite a bit. It feels like every time I play a Seafaring civ I get very little shield output due to being encouraged into settling like real life Carthage, Chile or Vietnam.

Should Seafaring civs get a bonus where they have an SW producing free courthouses? Would that be too powerful? I feel like the trait without it's gimmicky contact cheese is severely underpowered, far more so than Expansionist.

 

[Goldflash]

Eh, I'd say no. So on archipelago, with it's smaller landmasses, I feel like this would affect all players to some degree or another. And Seafaring is already pretty sub optimal on continents and doubly so on Pangea, that even with the courthouse bonus they're just not going to be great. I suppose you could give Courthouses the seafaring trait so their built cheaply, like harbors. But I think a better plan is just to try to give seafaring civs something stronger, like agricultural or commercial, as their second trait. (I think Seafaring/Agricultural makes just as much sense as Seafaring/Expansionist for Portugal, for example).

 

[Spoonwood]

Seafaring is a very good trait for any archipelago map. Cheap harbors and extra commerce produces a significant growth and research boost... especially early. There exists plenty to support that for 20k games Seafaring makes for a very good trait, because if the human player has it, then they have a big advantage.

Surprisingly, it can work well on pangea maps also. I had Portugal as the tech leader in the middle ages in the France Sid 20k pangea game.

 

[Predator145]

Seafaring is a very good trait for any archipelago map. Cheap harbors and extra commerce produces a significant growth and research boost... especially early. There exists plenty to support that for 20k games Seafaring makes for a very good trait, because if the human player has it, then they have a big advantage.

Surprisingly, it can work well on pangea maps also. I had Portugal as the tech leader in the middle ages in the France Sid 20k pangea game.

Does the city placement result in far lower shield output though? Not having like 4-5 cities on the other side of the capital that don't need courthouses would be a big difference.

A city like Hamhung if placed within the first ring around the core would not have needed a courthouse to be functional. But here it starts out losing over 50% shield output to distance corruption. Having a coastal capital means you'll have far more of these. Even Hyangsan, Pusan and Cheju need courthouses built. Note that republic here has been nerfed to monarchy level of corruption.

As you can see, I expanded along that large bay, using fast moving galleys to do so. But distance corruption meant that my southern part took a long time to develop:

And the 2 fishing villages on the other side of the bay have zero shield output, are utterly undefendable in the case of war against the Americans (which are leading), generate no real gold income before a harbor and courthouse were cash rushed. You'd need to cash rush aqueducts and markets on top of that should you want them to become significant. Considering their distance to Seoul is roughly the same as those more productive cities in the south-west, it's a bit depressing. Having a free corruption reducer means those overseas colonies would contribute more than just being impossible to defend resources grabbers.

On a map where normal civs aren't hampered with non central capital city placement, it seems like Seafaring civs with their coastal starts are handicapped. Thalassocracies are supposed to be good at governing distant overseas territories and stretched out thin coastal strips of land. I'm gonna experiment with a free corruption reducing improvement. This gives them another layer of corruption reduction and maybe very strong late game. But without the contact cheese which I modded out of the game until map making, they're quite weak. This could encourage a Seafaring player to settle in a coastal strip even on a Pangea to make the most out of their bonuses.

 

[WildWeazel]

On a map where normal civs aren't hampered with non central capital city placement, it seems like Seafaring civs with their coastal starts are handicapped. Thalassocracies are supposed to be good at governing distant overseas territories and stretched out thin coastal strips of land.

I literally just yesterday mentioned to @Takhisis that a seafaring government should have lower distance corruption for fewer cities. Of course, that's not possible in Civ3 rules.

 

[Takhisis]

I also mentioned that it'd be interesting if the game engine allowed us to either limit the number of cities overall for a civ or the number of cities per continent.

 

[Takhisis]

And the 2 fishing villages on the other side of the bay have zero shield output, are utterly undefendable in the case of war against the Americans

Just plant a forest on each tile and any fast-moving invasion force will be stopped; ergo, the AI will often not attack it because it is stupid like that. A city with walls+barracks can last a long time, too.

 

[timerover51]

I boost the resource output for Coastal, Sea, and Ocean tiles to 2/2/2, 2/1/1, and 1/1/1 for all coastal cities, with various building increasing the resource yields. This makes the Seafaring trait much more useful, especially on archipelago and continent maps. I do prefer very large maps, on the order of 300 X 240 or so. I also have a number of buildings that reduce corruption as well, plus playing with the governments a bit. It all depends on how you approach the game. Do you play by its rules or by yours? As I play for fun, I prefer my rules. Your Mileage May Differ.

 

[Spoonwood]

Does the city placement result in far lower shield output though?

Total shield production eventually though isn't necessarily what will matter.

Lately I've tried some Regent and Warlord starts on 60% Large archipelago maps. The issue lies in that the AIs take a while to put up harbors. I've finally realized, what I need to do consists in putting out boats and planting cities on every landmass. That way I can get harbors up on every landmass to import luxuries.

Fewer luxuries will mean lower production if you use specialists. Fewer luxuries also imply a civ weaker on research, so they get to railroads later. And railroads boost production.

If you mean eventual shield output, well that's the not the game if you ask me. It's either the relevance of your shield production relative to the AIs, in which more luxuries earlier helps, or the relevance of your shield production to finish date by victory condition or score. For both of the later, more luxuries do help.

From another perspective, it doesn't really matter if you have 500 tons of MFG vs. 400 tons in 2040 AD. It can matter more how quickly you can use those shields.

The extra movement from the seafaring trait combined with half-priced harbors ends up significant on archielago maps, when it gets used to get more luxuries online sooner.

 

[Virote_Considon]

1. Non-Seafaring civs can also start near coastal tiles and even if they are inland they may have a start which requires inoptimal city placement.

2. Later in the game, it's worth noting that water tiles are immune to pollution. This doesn't help much with production, but can help keep a city's population afloat while a cleanup crew arrives.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind.

 

[Predator145]

1. Non-Seafaring civs can also start near coastal tiles and even if they are inland they may have a start which requires inoptimal city placement.

2. Later in the game, it's worth noting that water tiles are immune to pollution. This doesn't help much with production, but can help keep a city's population afloat while a cleanup crew arrives.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind.

On a Pangea I'd even sacrifice a few turns to walk in land if I start coastal or a tile away form the coast. That way I get at least 1 coastal ring around the capital. With a coastal start you lose out on at least 3 cities that require no courthouses to function.

 

[Predator145]

Here's a test game with a free corruption reducing auto produced improvement for seafaring civs. It's quite decent. I could expand along a coastal strip and not feel like having no shields to survive.



A coastal start also means the AI will hem you in very easily. The Turco-Mongols expanded right into my face. I couldn't even secure a semi core. My empire was literally a coastal strip of land with every single city being coastal. I modded seafaring civs to have access to transports right away. Without that, I'd not have been able to expand to the other side of the bay in time.



With a normal pangea start Thang Long, Champasak and Vijaya would have been 1st ring core cities. Even with with the free corruption reducer, their remoteness still made them hard to develop. It didn't feel too overpowered for now. But of course, I'm pangea centric. But pangea is a map where you can't contact cheese or put up a buncha outposts to not have an proper military. You're either armed or you're on someone's menu.

 

[timerover51]

If you are so worried about Seacoast cities not having sufficient production adjust the resource settings for the coastal, sea, and ocean times to increase food, shield, and gold yields. A seacoast city is going to be able to draw upon a wider range of resources by trading via the sea. I try to demonstrate that through increased resource yields and buildings which increase resources as well. The AI has no problem picking this up as well and goes to seacoast cities. A one tile island can be turned into an economic powerhouse through this method and also does not have to worry about pollution.

 

[Predator145]

If you are so worried about Seacoast cities not having sufficient production adjust the resource settings for the coastal, sea, and ocean times to increase food, shield, and gold yields. A seacoast city is going to be able to draw upon a wider range of resources by trading via the sea. I try to demonstrate that through increased resource yields and buildings which increase resources as well. The AI has no problem picking this up as well and goes to seacoast cities. A one tile island can be turned into an economic powerhouse through this method and also does not have to worry about pollution.

I'm not trying to drastically change stock game, just refine it. It's pretty good for the most part as it is. I don't have the problem with coastal tiles being commerce heavy instead of shield. It's the distance corruption concept that was half baked with the Seafaring trait being hard coded to start coastal.

 

[Civinator]

What about giving the harbor the "reduces corruption" flag ?

 

[Predator145]

What about giving the harbor the "reduces corruption" flag ?

You'd end up buffing all other civs as well. And indirect nerf Seafaring AIs because they don't know how to found next to the coast line. Seeing the AI plant their city 1 tile away from the coast is about as painful as seeing them plant on a wheat/cow.

And I've already given cheaper courthouses and police stations to Militaristic.

 

[Spoonwood]

With a coastal start you lose out on at least 3 cities that require no courthouses to function.

Why not just build workers from the coastal capital for a bit, make some center city the biggest, and then abandon your capital so that it moves inland?

 

[Spoonwood]

But pangea is a map where you can't contact cheese or put up a buncha outposts to not have an proper military.

I tried an Emperor fast run for histographic with outpost block and had a Roman marine break through one of them. Outposts are counterproductive to worker uses that I know of other than outpost island block. Anyways, if the AIs can research and the game lasts enough turns, then one will need a military.

It's the distance corruption concept that was half baked with the Seafaring trait being hard coded to start coastal.

Wasn't distance corruption designed by Firaxis and Seafaring by Breakaway games? That signals incompatability between the two concepts at best to me.

But if it's corruption as the problem, why not have seafaring civs have some small wonder which is like the Communist only secret HQ?

Seeing the AI plant their city 1 tile away from the coast is about as painful as seeing them plant on a wheat/cow.

If they are seafaring, that could actually make sense/have some logical basis for their capital.. and I don't mean just planting a city as soon as possible! Of course, none of us would plant a city on a cow early game. But, if playing for high or maximum score with a domination limit, the eventual spot of cities is jammed into coasts to maximize sea square usage. Losing some food from cows isn't as valuable score wise in some areas than more sea square usage. If the algorithm has the score system in mind, then such city sites can make sense.

 

[Predator145]

If the free courthouse is a bit too strong then the secret police HQ could be next best thing. But it's still rank corruption reduction.

 

[Takhisis]

2. Later in the game, it's worth noting that water tiles are immune to pollution. This doesn't help much with production, but can help keep a city's population afloat while a cleanup crew arrives.

Of course, one can just have a one-tile island with an offshore platform + factory + power plant combo…