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Seceding and the law

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by otago, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. otago

    otago Deity

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    In some ways I do not see what on the earth the law has to do with a state seceding from the USA.
    Would Yugoslavia not be a better model ? the way it broke up because people wanted it to happen.

    So if so Maine wants to secede would the USA use the full force of it's military to stop them ?
    With television pictures of dead ex american civilians who had been bombed by the US air force being shown on American television sets.

    So if a small state did decide to secede and used it's National Guard to chuck all federal types out of the state would the US let it go or would it use the full power of it's military against that ex states people ?
    Yes,it is a damned if you do or don't question ;)
     
  2. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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  3. Fifty

    Fifty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    If you want to secede you just have to work hard, try your best, take calculated risks, and do what you're passionate about. :)
     
  4. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    To be more succinct and actually answer your questions:

    In the ACS, not everyone wanted it. The South did, but the North didn't, which is why we came to blows over it.

    Yes, if a state tried to secede from the union, the US government would do everything in its power to prevent the action, including taking military actions if necessary.
     
  5. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    Might makes right. :)

    In seceding like in everything else.
     
  6. Vind2

    Vind2 Woof?

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    Secession isn't possible anymore. States aren't self sustainable.
     
  7. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

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    What? Alot of states are a lot bigger then a lot of countries.
     
  8. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

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    The South will rise again!
    The pathetic US constitution will be torn asunder by our mighty wheels of war!

     
  9. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    What if a state tried to secede legally somehow, by holding a state-wide referendum to change the state constitution such that the state wasn't a part of the u.s. anymore?

    Would that work? Or would this have to happen at the federal level - in which case all the other states would work to block the move? (they would, right? it would be in their best interests to keep the country together. together it's a superpower economically and militarily, split into states it might not be)
     
  10. Shadylookin

    Shadylookin master debater

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    The confederate states' legislatures succeeded and we didn't accept it. Presumably they were acting on the will of the people.

    Whether leaving the union is legal or not is irrelevant because our constitution allows for invasion for any reason or none at all.

    So Maine could be all "you guys suck we're leaving everyone in the state agrees smell ya later"
    Then we could be all "Cool story bro, but we just nuked your capitol."
     
  11. Vind2

    Vind2 Woof?

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    Being bigger only makes it harder. An average state can't feed nor power itself. There're too many modern necessities (internet, electricity, transportation, food etc...) that states don't provide themselves.
     
  12. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

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    Being bigger makes it harder? So wouldn't states be more capable of providing for themselves then the Country?
     
  13. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    No. Someone already said it, but just because the seceding states in question vote in favor of succession, it doesn't necessarily mean that the federal government of the US will see it as legitimate. See: American Civil War 1861-1865
     
  14. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    You will have to win a war to get out of the union.

    And on that, I have no idea which state is most militaristic or which has the biggest National Guard or whatever, but if, say, California decides by popular vote to leave, would they stand a chance of succeeding?

    Actually, forget that one. If several states decides to leave the union, like what happened two centuries ago, would they stand any chance of making it? Which groups or states may be strong enough to succeed in seceding? I'm guessing the federal forces would still be loyal to the union?

    Oh, and knowing the past, would the FBI or whoever bust in and arrest people before a vote, either a popular one or amongst the states' congresses? Would a vote on secession even be allowed to be held?
     
  15. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    The difference between the US and Yugoslavia in that example is that Yugoslavia was an empire of people who didn't even speak the same language, and had centuries of hate for one another and was held together by force. Once the force was removed the people had no interest in being part of the same country. In the US, only a trivial handful of people even consider breaking up. And that handful is not geographically cohesive. So they couldn't break up without a massive 2 way redistribution of people.

    As to the law, a state simply could not do it without Congress passing a law or a Supreme Court ruling. And there's no way for them to get either in practical terms.
     
  16. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    The only thing that can prevent a state from leaving the union is the threat of reconquest by the rest of the Union. That is what happened in 1865, and nothing more.

    The Congress and Supreme Court, however, have no relevance on whether a state can leave or not. It is entirely to the state legislatures in question.

    So the simple answer is that yes, it is absolutely legal to leave the union. Whether you can then maintain your independance afterward is a whole different question.
     
  17. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    A bit like the Soviet Union.
     

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