Second Best Leader Trait?

[DarkSchneider]

It seems to me that Financial provides the highest per-turn boost to your economy. And yes, I am almost always running a CE.

 

[TM Moot]

Financial is the second best trait, because Charismatic is clearly the best trait.

substitute INDUSTRIOUS for charismatic and you're bang on the money..!!

 

[Silence101]

It depends a lot on how you specialize your cities and how you manage your expansion. I think Financial is one of the "laziest" traits (no offense - I don't mean that in a bad way) in the manner that it's fairly easy to take advantage of - unlike managing expansion and city specialization, you can see the positive effects of Financial without really having to do much that you wouldn't normally do with any CE. Of course, it's always optimal to combine the strengths of whatever traits you're playing and focus your strategy to take advantage of those strengths.

 

[Winston Hughes]

For my money, Spiritual is far, far ahead of all the other traits, including Financial

I'm with you.

When I list my top leaders, most of them are Spiritual.

Philosophical and Financial come a distant joint-second, but are still some way ahead of the others (at least in BtS).

Gandhi and MM rule.

 

[madscientist]

Financial provides a good bonus that shows up very early and allows fast starts. There are no production bonus to buildings (like creative, industrious and organized), no GP bonus (like Imperialistic and Phil), not unit bonus (like char, agg, prot), no health bonus (expansive) or anarchy (Spir).

You get 1 extra commerce per 2 commerce tile, that's it. Powerful, yes. Powerful early, definitely. Powerful late, not really.

Things to think about

1) How many more units do you have to build to replace those lost to agressive/charismatic leaders if Financial
2) How much slower are you generating GP if not Philosophical.
3) How much commerce do you lose in anarchy during a game when not spiritual? How about military/building production when not able to switch civics that easily?
4) Now many time has your cities been fewer because an Imperialistic AI got a better city site (gold, gems, horse etc) becasue they built settlers faster.
5) How long does it take to chop out a jungle for dye and sugar when you cannot produce workers 25% faster?
6) How about missing those 2 extra sea routes by missing the great lighthouse to an industrious AI by 2 turns.
7) How much longer does it take to build the national epic and heroic epic after teching literature when not getting +50% hammers by being industrious.
8) How many units do you need to protect a city when a CG III, Drill I longbow would do the trick.
9) How much time do you waste building monuments or missionaries so you cities expand to the BFC?
10) How much commerce would you get if you could use Free market and several corps but can't because your stuck in SP due to upkeep.

I could go on and on, but my point is each trait has a benefit. Financial is fine and has it's uses, and teching fast early on is a big benefit. Does not make financial the best.

This is the reason I play a leader until I win then retire them, I like to play versatile trait combos which help me play better. I love financial and will leverage that ability like crazy, but the nest leader will usually NOT be financial.

 

[DarkSchneider]

I would say that for most cities, financial provides approx 1 additional commerce for every 2 population or so (since around 1/2 tiles that you work will get the benefit from the financial trait.) That's much better than the discount in civic cost the you get from the Organized trait.

I look at Financial as the most powerful because it provides the most benefit to your economy, which in turn gets you the tech advantage you need to wage war effectively.

 

[madscientist]

I would say that for most cities, financial provides approx 1 additional commerce for every 2 population or so (since around 1/2 tiles that you work will get the benefit from the financial trait.) That's much better than the discount in civic cost the you get from the Organized trait.

I look at Financial as the most powerful because it provides the most benefit to your economy, which in turn gets you the tech advantage you need to wage war effectively.

Yes, if organised only provided the upkeep bonus. You get fast production on three building almost every city has (at least costal cities). Also late in the game an organized leader is good for an extra 10-20% on the science slider compared with a financial leader.

Financial gets you the tech advantage, if played correctly. Organized let's you absorb the rival empire faster.

 

[xanadux]

If you know how to run a good SE, PHI is just as good as FIN.

 

[DarkSchneider]

If you know how to run a good SE, PHI is just as good as FIN.

I'm still at a loss as to how a SE is supposed to work. The city specialists themselves are much less efficent then just running a lot of cottages. Every GP that you produce makes the next one that much more difficult, so they provide diminishing returns as the game goes along, whereas cottages grow into towns that provide even more commerce.

 

[Wodan]

I would say that anyone's choice for the First best leader trait would depend on what they say is the Second best. In other words, there is synchronicity. A best leader depends on BOTH traits.

Take whatever YOU think is the best trait and pair it with whatever YOU think is the worst trait. I daresay it will now be outperformed (in YOUR mind) by some other combo.

Wodan

 

[Silence101]

I would say that for most cities, financial provides approx 1 additional commerce for every 2 population or so (since around 1/2 tiles that you work will get the benefit from the financial trait.) That's much better than the discount in civic cost the you get from the Organized trait.

I look at Financial as the most powerful because it provides the most benefit to your economy, which in turn gets you the tech advantage you need to wage war effectively.

Not that I completely disagree, but I think that your statement is very circumstancial. To see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE - this generally means fewer specialists and fewer great people. Organized has several benefits over Financial - most obvious, that you don't have to be working tiles to take advantage of it (great for an SE). Courthouses are fairly costly and one of the only early sources of espionage - getting them cheaper (and therefore quicker) is big. Organized becomes more powerful the larger your empire becomes - it allows for fast REXing / aggressive expansion without as must recoup time if you've prioritized CoL (which you probably should with ORG). It allows you to run more expensive Civics without the same economic drawbacks. As for early wars - that's one of the best times to run an SE, and Financial would certainly not help much with that. It's primarily a CE trait, which is a huge drawback.

It does sound like you're leveraging the benefits of Financial... and in the circumstances you described, it may be more powerful to you than Organized. However, that doesn't make it the best trait.

 

[DarkSchneider]

I think that most trait's strength in general outweigh their possible synergy with other traits. For example, I think any combination of Financial, Organized, Charismatic, Spiritual and Philosophical will be better than any combination of Protective, Imperialistic, Creative, Aggressive and Expansive.

Financial and Charismatic are good seperately, and they are good together. I don't think any of the traits negatively impact each other. Most are just the sum of their respective parts, while a few improve each other.

 

[xanadux]

I'm still at a loss as to how a SE is supposed to work. The city specialists themselves are much less efficent then just running a lot of cottages. Every GP that you produce makes the next one that much more difficult, so they provide diminishing returns as the game goes along, whereas cottages grow into towns that provide even more commerce.

Play a PHI leader. After worker techs, get Writing for Libraries. Once you have writing, one of your cities (sometimes the capital, sometimes not) should run 2 scientists specialists ASAP.

Pick a city to be your SSC (super science city). This should be a city with a high food surplus. Preferably 3 or 4 tiles with 5 or 6 food. Ideally this city will also have at least 2 hills for mines, and at least 4 forests for chopping the Great Library.

First scientist either settles in SSC or builds an Academy there (whichever is better). Second builds an academy if first settled, otherwise this and all future scientists settle in the SSC.

Build the Pyramids. Run Representation. Build the Parthenon if you can (but not in the SSC).

After Writing, prioritize CoL for Caste System. SSC runs as many scientist specialists as possible, stopping only to build TGL and Oxford.

I personally like to have the SSC not be my capital, and use my capital with bureaucracy to be a super production city.

Try it. compare to your cottage capital games. The settled specialist SSC with a PHI leader is as good or better than a FIN leader's cottaged Bureaucracy capital.

I don't advocate a CE or SE. I use both a lot. But in general, on Emperor level and below, a SE is better than CE with a PHI leader, and a CE is better than a SE with a FIN leader. Without FIN or PHI, sometimes CE is better, and sometimes SE is better, depending on the land you have.

 

[Silence101]

I'm still at a loss as to how a SE is supposed to work. The city specialists themselves are much less efficent then just running a lot of cottages. Every GP that you produce makes the next one that much more difficult, so they provide diminishing returns as the game goes along, whereas cottages grow into towns that provide even more commerce.

I'm sure there's probably an essay that could be written on the advantages of an SE, but one of the first and most important benefits that come to mind is that an SE allows you to focus your income (commerce) on military and city expenses, which in turn allows you to build a larger empire, earlier, without stunting your research. If you can build a larger empire and manage it effectively, the long-term returns will be exponentially greater than with a smaller empire. An SE goes a long way toward helping with balanced, aggressive expansion.

 

[madscientist]

I'm still at a loss as to how a SE is supposed to work. The city specialists themselves are much less efficent then just running a lot of cottages. Every GP that you produce makes the next one that much more difficult, so they provide diminishing returns as the game goes along, whereas cottages grow into towns that provide even more commerce.

A good SE will last through democracy where you can adopt emancipation and drastically speed up cottaging. You can run cottages with a SE also (it's preferred).

To me a great SE requires the pyramids for early representation (others do not need it, but I do), which amount to 12 beakers per city that is running just 2 scientist specialist (how many cottages is that early on??). The key is bulbing after founding an academy with the first, bulb for PHIL and trade to everyone. You be surpirised how many techs you can get for that one. Tech paper your self then use GS #3 for most of education, play your cards right and you can tech liberalism and economics to within one turn each. Then trade away education and get as much as you can. Finally do the last 2 turns of liberalism and economics for the free tech (take nationalism for a head start on Taj, Astronomy for continental trading, or printing press iuf you are cottaging) plus the free Great Mechant (BIG trade route return or a free corp with the techs).

The thing with SE and those scientists is that it in independent of your military state.

 

[DarkSchneider]

Not that I completely disagree, but I think that your statement is very circumstancial. To see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE - this generally means fewer specialists and fewer great people. Organized has several benefits over Financial - most obvious, that you don't have to be working tiles to take advantage of it (great for an SE). Courthouses are fairly costly and one of the only early sources of espionage - getting them cheaper (and therefore quicker) is big. Organized becomes more powerful the larger your empire becomes - it allows for fast REXing / aggressive expansion without as must recoup time if you've prioritized CoL (which you probably should with ORG). It allows you to run more expensive Civics without the same economic drawbacks. As for early wars - that's one of the best times to run an SE, and Financial would certainly not help much with that. It's primarily a CE trait, which is a huge drawback.

It does sound like you're leveraging the benefits of Financial... and in the circumstances you described, it may be more powerful to you than Organized. However, that doesn't make it the best trait.

Well I am a big fan of Darius, who gets to have both Financial and Organized. I still can't decide if he's a better leader than Hannibal's Financial/Charismatic though. I suppose during wartime, Hannibal is better and during peace time Darius is better.

And yes, I'm making the implicit assumption that a CE is stronger than a SE.

 

[Gliese 581]

Not that I completely disagree, but I think that your statement is very circumstancial. To see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE - this generally means fewer specialists and fewer great people. Organized has several benefits over Financial - most obvious, that you don't have to be working tiles to take advantage of it (great for an SE). Courthouses are fairly costly and one of the only early sources of espionage - getting them cheaper (and therefore quicker) is big. Organized becomes more powerful the larger your empire becomes - it allows for fast REXing / aggressive expansion without as must recoup time if you've prioritized CoL (which you probably should with ORG). It allows you to run more expensive Civics without the same economic drawbacks. As for early wars - that's one of the best times to run an SE, and Financial would certainly not help much with that. It's primarily a CE trait, which is a huge drawback.

It does sound like you're leveraging the benefits of Financial... and in the circumstances you described, it may be more powerful to you than Organized. However, that doesn't make it the best trait.

I don't agree that running a CE means fewer great people since all of them should be generated in your gp farm anyhow, and naturally that should be a city that does not work cottages.. now if you don't build any wonders, I can see how other cities than 'the' GP farm generates GPs, but do you really get more? I would like to see the mathematics on that..

From my experience a hybrid economy works the best since each city has it's own unique terrain that is more or less suited for production growth and commerce, the most effective use of a city then is to design it according to its strengths.

I also don't agree with other posters stating that financial is nice for early research but does not give a long term benefit. I think financial is the strongest trait just because it's strongly beneficial for the whole duration of your game. Early extra commerce, and the bonus only grows as your empire grows. In contrast many traits that I love to play with for the comfort they give, like spiritual or creative, is not a great help at all stages of the game. Early on spiritual is almost useless whilst creative is great early on but less and less significant with time.

It's true that the best trait depends alot on what your playstyle is, the difficulty and so on, and I think several of the traits are very close (especially like I earlier said, financial, philosophical and charismatic), but if I have to choose one trait based on overall utility I pick financial for the reasons outlined above. It's never useless no matter what your current situation or strategy in a game is, even if the benefit is small, as when running a SE.

 

[xanadux]

Below Emperor level, I wouldn't recommend bulbing much with GP. Even at Monarch, a good settled scientist SE with early Representation should give a substantial tech lead in the vast majority of games with no lightbulbing.

Silence mentioned another advantage of the SE. You can REX like mad. Your science output is mostly independent of the slider and you can easily settle 7 or 8 cities on a standard map as fast as you can, and your science rate doesn't suffer much. You can use a few filler cities to take advantage of riverside grasslands for cottages to make gold. A SE relies mostly on food special resources and flood plains. Grasslands pre-biology can be used for cottages.

A SE need not falter after Democracy. I find supplementing a SE with Espionage from the very powerful EP buildings, and focusing on production and military is stronger than transitioning to cottages. A Transition Economy is more a strategy for high level (immortal and Deity) games when lightbulbing is required to keep up with the AI, and a strong science base from settling specialists is not there.

 

[madscientist]

Not that I completely disagree, but I think that your statement is very circumstancial. To see the greatest benefits of Financial, you must run a CE - this generally means fewer specialists and fewer great people. Organized has several benefits over Financial - most obvious, that you don't have to be working tiles to take advantage of it (great for an SE). Courthouses are fairly costly and one of the only early sources of espionage - getting them cheaper (and therefore quicker) is big. Organized becomes more powerful the larger your empire becomes - it allows for fast REXing / aggressive expansion without as must recoup time if you've prioritized CoL (which you probably should with ORG). It allows you to run more expensive Civics without the same economic drawbacks. As for early wars - that's one of the best times to run an SE, and Financial would certainly not help much with that. It's primarily a CE trait, which is a huge drawback.

It does sound like you're leveraging the benefits of Financial... and in the circumstances you described, it may be more powerful to you than Organized. However, that doesn't make it the best trait.

You can also run a costal trade economy with a financial leader by nailing the GL and colossus early. Your GPs will predominantly be GMs which you use for trade missions so you can keep the science slider at 100%. You then get +4 commerce from each sea tile. Well built costal cities will get alot more commerce from trade routes than cottages, at least until the wonders obsolete.

 

[DarkSchneider]

Another thing, after drafting a number of riflemen, I generally switch to the Free-Speech and Enancipation Civics, which improves the additional commerce generated by the towns. Also, the science modifier will be at least 50% in each city, so one additional commerce = 1.5 to 2 beakers of science.