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Second Genghis game of the weekend - from Tempesta

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by michmbk, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    This is the summary so far of the second Genghis game I'm playing this weekend - the one tempesta posted in the monarch student thread. I thought if others wanted to play it, the separate thread would be a better place for it. The 4000 BC save is below. This one is definitely tougher than the monarch student one I think. My report to 10 AD coming in next post.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Harder one first...I need a break from G major 45 marathon is so zzzzzzzz.
     
  3. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Report to 10 AD - this was tough if you wanted to play true Genghis style (which is the only way I play Genghis).

    Spoiler :


    Horses in the BFC with 2 corn sounds awesome, but commerce is a real issue. Risky here to tech HBR before Ag, so I went AH, Ag, HBR. Persia is close, so they’re done. Met everybody fast, so seems we’re on one landmass. I went a bit unusual start: Worker, barracks, worker, worker so I could chop like mad once keshiks are ready.

    Here’s why I built so many workers – and this is the problem with this start. If you want to use keshiks, you have to accept unimproved land for about 20 turns – too many forests you can’t chop. Also, commerce kind of sucks, so HBR will take some time, so that’s making this a much tougher rush. This start probably favors AG-mining-BW, and then pottery for some cottaging, which Genghis needs if he doesn’t war. It probably favors expanding peacefully. I don’t expand peacefully with Genghis though - I want keshiks. The workers will allow me to mass produce keshiks when I finally do get them out – time will be of the essence.

    I started my rush in the first Genghis game with 10 keshiks turn 117. Can I do the same here??? My thought was that the only way to do this is with chopping workers. They have little to do after the farms, so they build roads everywhere. That’ll allow for lightning chops.

    I popped a scout from a hut, so really got great exploration. Willem appears to be in a peninsula – a great second choice after Darius. There also appears to be a great blocking site to the west. It’s too far initially, but I will try hard to get it after taking out Darius. If I’m right, that spot would block me, Darius and Willem on one peninsula. That should mean they’re both dead, and I will have lots of land. This is what I did with my first settler:



    +2 happy cap at iron working – thought that was important. Hindsight - really stupid to place there when I knew I'd kill Persia immediately. I should have placed this at the choke point NW a bit more and blocked everyone over there. Oh well - you can't get better unless you make mistakes. Now the race is on to BW and archery, which will lead to keshiks. I can’t afford more than 2 cities early on, as tempting as it is to spit out one extra settler while waiting for BW. I barely had enough gold to make it to BW, and had to turn tech off while producing the keshiks. Also can’t even get mysticism for a border pop. 6 turns from BW, I built a fourth worker. 2 cities, 4 workers, chop chop chop. Here I was after BW and archery – turn 102:



    As you can see, Beshbalik won’t even be helping – it’s all on my capital. I'm really pissed about that second city placement. Dumb dumb dumb. But - You’re about to see why I built 4 workers. I had a lot of prechopped forests here. In the 7 turns it took to tech archery, I had prechopped 4 forests and had started my workers on 4 more. I kid you not – 8 forests get chopped in 4 turns. My rush starts at turn 117 – compare to turn 102 above:



    9 keshiks in 15 turns – not bad. You’ll note I also teched pottery and all my workers are now laying down the cottages needed in Karakorum – it will be cottaged up from now on. I hope Darius built a wonder. Go time:



    2 archers were protecting – no casualties. That’s huge. One keshik stays behind to heal. Gems there mean I have to keep it. The only other city I’ll keep is the capital. I can now put tech up to 50% comfortably. Race to capital – he doesn’t have copper – done:



    Now tech up to 100% for a few turns. He appears to have 2 other cities. This will be tough. Persepolis is an unbelievably strong city - so flexible. Susa:



    It’s not in the right place – I have to raze and resettle to claim the gold. 3 workers in the city are nice. Hanny offers me IW for HBR. I have to do that with all the jungle to clear. That will help - glad I have all those workers too. And he’s done.



    Willem will be next. And I have my super medic keshik too. Willem founded Confucianism and spread to me. Hindsight, I should have played nice in the sandbox with him and settled all the available land nearby. But keshiks are too tempting. I finally get to DOWing Willem, and see he has construction! Ugh. And after I take a city, I see an elephant wandering around. So, I sacrifice a fast moving keshik to pillage his ivory while I gear up to take his ivory city. Which I do thanks to keshiks. I then see an elephant, cat and horse archer coming…better take peace. I sure hope he doesn’t have another source of ivory up there. I can’t possibly finish him before construction, but at least I’ve blocked him in beautifully - this will piss him off for sure.

    State of the world at 10 AD:



    Much tougher game - those two cities of Willem's are getting extreme cultural pressure, but I've boxed him into that corner. I can still pull out of this, but it won’t be easy. Willem will DOW me for sure at some point. Saladin beat me to the barb city that I wanted to claim to block the other side, so he’ll DOW me too at some point. This wasn’t as fun a keshik romp for sure. Hindsight, I should have killed Persia and then claimed the choke point where Saladin is. Could have left Willem alone awhile as I righted my economy. Definitely made more mistakes so far in this game.
     
  4. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Oh, and by the way, I only posted my initial autosave, which is emperor epic. I think Tempesta posted the full WB file in the monarch students thread if someone wants to choose their leader, speed and level. so if you want to choose something other than emperor epic, download his file.
     
  5. Lansky

    Lansky King

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    Just played this up to 75AD (i think). I'll write something up. Harder than the other start but Keshiks are just full of laughs.
     
  6. Tempesta13

    Tempesta13 Prince

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    To 1 AD...

    Spoiler :

    I started off settling 1W - hard choice since nothing is visible from the start. Ended up losing a corn and gaining a cow. Not too bad I guess. EDIT: I forgot those horses appeared in what would have been the BFC - i really should have just settled in place. I decided to try and get 3 cities and tech horseback riding and archery before the economy crashes. At this point i have no choice but to attack - strike is coming next turn and the only way i can ever finish researching pottery is if i take a city from Darius, or lose my army trying so i don't pay maintenance.



    My 6 Keshiks aren't successful trying to take that hill. The chariots are more than enough though to get it on the next turn. It's working a couple gems so i definitely keep it. Well, they both were mined until that barb axe came. At least it wasn't a spearman.



    Hannibal and Willem decide I had a good idea attacking Darius and they both join in. I took the capital a few turns later with more Keshiks. Soon after this willem takes that other city to the NE and eliminated Darius.



    I have room for at least 13 decent cities. If i can develop all this land somewhat quickly i should have a shot.



    Willem has a small army here, but I could handle a DOW from him or hannibal right now. Just probably can't handle both - i switched out of Judaism to so state religion to try and avoid this. Getting a prophet for my holy city i took from Darius would be nice - not sure how i would do this though. I don't have either of the other two religions in any of my cities right now.



    Tech isn't looking that great right now. No one has literature so i might be able to get the great library. If i can research/bulb a monopoly tech or two i might be able to catch up. I'll have to figure out a tech path to shoot for. Also need to try and get a GP soon - no one has bulbed philo yet so maybe that's a possibility. I need the prereqs to it first though. 17 turns until my next GP though (that city is running 2 scientists) Running 1 in the cap now, if i switch to 2 it will get one in 16 turns. Hopefully philo isn't taken by then. Although i'd need to somehow get alphabet for that to work...



    No one is wheoohrn right now - i should open borders with sal and try and get him to friendly - if i can get buddhism spread to me i should be able to. Hannibal would be the next target then. Looks like that won't be until rifling probably though.


    EDIT: Here is the Emperor/Normal save + starting screenshot

     

    Attached Files:

  7. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    Most fun I ever had with Ghengis was Mad Scientist's RPC with him, what a blast! I probably have the WB kicking around, I think I moved it to Epic speed. Marathon makes me zzzzz too, sorry all you Marathoners!
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Hmmm. This is surprising. My laptop has hard-locked twice today while playing, I'm not sure what's going on with it. I hope it isn't a hardware issue. I'm attempting to install on my desktop in the meantime, but the specs on this aren't as good. I wonder if it will run ok...

    Anyway I'm going to have to replay the 4000 - 2200 BC time period on this sucker, after the lengthy reinstall that is. Jeez, first photobucket and now my laptop huh (My old photobucket pics will be back up soon as the "monthly" bandwidth cycle is coming up on the next month).
     
  9. Lansky

    Lansky King

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    The more I read this forum the more I realize I'm a wordy warmonger.
    Report to 75AD
    Played on Normal speed

    Spoiler :

    Hate settling capitals on hills so move SW
    Spoiler :





    Meet victim one to the North and victim two to the NE
    Spoiler :





    It is a mandate from above. Keshiks shall sow terror across the world!
    Spoiler :




    AH is done and I’m amazing. I moved off the hill and away from the horses. Quickly spit out a settler to rectify this horrendous mistake.
    Spoiler :




    In the year 1960BC God said unto me “Kill them all”
    Spoiler :




    Persian capital has 1 archer on flat land. Persian expansion has 3 archers on a hill. Hmmm tough decision.
    Spoiler :




    Not only do I take the capital Darius has a worker on the hill to the east that I claim and he sends one of the three archers to uh flank me. This ends poorly. Somewhere in here I meet Qin, Saladin, and Hannibal as well. They seem to be on the same continent though all made contact with fishing boats.
    Spoiler :




    Three reinforcing Keshiks have some good luck against the archers of Pasargadae. This nets me a GG which becomes my super medic. This is greatly needed as while Persia is dead the Dutch are still stinking up the joint.
    Spoiler :




    Willem like usual has vastly overexpanded and spread out his defense. One down.
    Spoiler :




    IW is done and while I moved the capital out of horses I moved it into Iron. I get over my start and decide it’s a wash.
    Spoiler :




    Oh btw. Two down.
    Spoiler :




    I reach the Dutch capital but there is a scary spearman helping out the archers. Not to worry though as in a turn help arrives and my razing city modifiers just keep stacking up.
    Spoiler :




    Moving into position to mop up Willem I get some bad news. Doesn’t help Willem much though.
    Spoiler :





    Despite razing all of Willems cities and pillaging everything I could my own mini rex on the starting peninsula (4 cities bunched up enough to share the food resources) along with the two Persian cities are crashing my economy. So I do the only logical thing. Expand! The workers stolen from Willem were kind enough to help set this up. Oh, Hannibals stack of doom finally showed up to the west. He probably drives a convertible sports car with a large engine.
    Spoiler :





    Couple trades to get caught back up with the other AIs.
    Spoiler :





    In the mean time my veteran Keshiks (2 GG Keshiks, one medic one super flanking, and the other three in the low 20’s exp by now) are pushing into Hannibals territory pillaging as they go. He has been sending units (lots of HA’s) at me 2-3 at a time and I finally get to a city, or as I deem it a pile of gold.
    Spoiler :




    Despite all the pillaging my economic situation keeps getting worse and I am teching almost solely from library hired scientists. Then I find salvation.
    Spoiler :




    Leaving a trail of burnt housing I come to Carthage. It is guarded by 3 archers, a horse archer and 2 axemen by the time I pull up. After one round of combat its down to an archer and an axe. Alas he also just learned Feudalism…
    Spoiler :




    I decide I need the gold and sacrifice one of the stronger Keshiks to the luck gods. They’ve had enough of my begging and kill him but not before the longbow is good and weak. Thankfully I see the pyramids and don’t blow it up. More goodies inside too. This leaves me with an interesting dilemma.
    Spoiler :




    I simply cannot afford to pay maintenance on this city. Even if I could he’s getting ivory from someone and has a couple elephants lumbering around so I can’t hold the city anyway. Thinking I’ll just vacate it and let him have it back. Keep pillaging the rest of his towns and then see what he’ll give for peace. He simply doesn’t have a unit with a move value high enough to stop me if I move them around intelligently. They are all F2 and either C2 or 3 now (other than the medic of course). Just finished Drama and started on Music in order get some off the beaten path trade bait and an extra GP. I just may need a really early golden age to pull this off and no way in hell am I using one of my GS for that.

    I have a settler camping the ivory/gem spot marked. Other than that I have no plan. No infrastructure beyond libraries. No world wonders. Half my cities are not growing as I need to run scientists in order to tech. I’m 2-4 techs behind the Liberalism race. The only thing I have going for me are Keshiks, lots of land, and an army of workers because I can’t afford anymore Keshiks. I still like my odds.

    The Mongol world
    Spoiler :




     
  10. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    I failed miserably in the next round. I'm still trying to pull it out, but I think I'm toast.

    Spoiler :

    It's 1500 something, I finally got rid of willem, and I'm about 8-9 techs behind Qin & Hanny. Willem was pissed at me after boxing him to three cities, and Saladin was pissed on the other side. So Saladin kept dowing me, then hanny backstabbed. I've built tons of horse and phant units to keep them off me, and haven't lost a city, but I haven't been able to develop infrastructure either. Not much chance to win by dom, so my only real hope is to go for space I think. I can't remember the last time I went for space unfortunately, so this will be tough. It'll require perfect play the rest of the way.
     
  11. Lansky

    Lansky King

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    1575 Game Over

    Spoiler :

    It's late, or early I guess, so this is going to be really to the point. After Willem and Darius were out of it, it was really easy to keep the entire eastern half of the continent to myself. Backfilled the area as my economy recovered and got Liberalism in 1250ishAD. This sounds bad except that everyone else was so slow that by this point I had manually researched Nationalism, Military Tradition, Printing Press, and Gunpowder. Pacal finally got Education so I went back and finished Liberalism and took replaceable parts. Gets predictable from here.

    Spies to all of Saladin and Qin's cities (Qin had voluntarily become Saladin's vassal) and set slider to wealth for a few turns. Upgraded the 15ish veteran Keshiks I had laying around including the two non medic generals. Finished Taj Mahal and later chained the Artist I had gotten from music and never used. Pumped out cavalry until they were both eliminated. Raised culture slider up. Watched t.v. and hit enter.
    Spoiler :



     
  12. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    I cried uncle in the 1700s. I think religion killed me in the end.

    Spoiler :

    In hindsight, I should have accepted that everyone else was hindu and converted. I was so cognizant of taking the holy confucian city and getting that spread early on that I didn't realize it'd lead to hindu dogpiling later. Saladin, Qin and Hanny all DOWed me at different times after I killed Willem, and they kept decimating my forces. I'd win a city from Saladin, then he'd force peace with the AP, then assign the city back to himself.

    I couldnt defy any resolutions because I was already having emancipation issues and didn't have constitution yet. I couldn't survive the game as the infidel, so i should have just accepted hinduism even though it was only in one of my cities.

    I gave up not having bio, democracy or any military tech beyond rifling, and Qin and Hanny were both still way ahead of me in tech. And even though I can produce a bunch of units, I only have about 10 spare ones because of constant warring as the infidel. I do have a lot of settled GGs though thanks to imperialistic. But can't win 3 on one.
     
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If there was a forum UN resolution comitee I would submit no more mongol games to be played this month!!!!

    We simply cant keep bashing the Ai so unfairly.

    It just doesnt feel right!!! :scan:

    I have too many other games to complete anyway. :(
     
  14. Ai Shizuka

    Ai Shizuka King

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    WB save attached if anyone wants to play at different diff/speed.
     

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  15. Tempesta13

    Tempesta13 Prince

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    @lansky
    I told you this map was way harder than the other - took you all the way to 1575 instead of 1505... :D

    Unfortunately my game isn't going as good :wallbash:
    1000 AD
    Spoiler :

    Did no more Keshik attacks after taking out Darius. I really wish i had of gone after willem - i had a window to do it at the beginning of this round. Just built peacefully for 1000 years. Never could get a monopoly tech so i'm still having trouble catching up in tech. Hannibal beat me to philosophy by a few turns. Willem beat me to paper - but i should get education in around 10 turns. I'm sure i can win liberalism here and use education/liberalism/nationalism to catch up/take the tech lead. Having some WFYABTA issues but not too bad. Maybe try and set up the globe and draft rifles to take willem out?

    100 beakers/turn at 1000 AD isn't great - i don't know how people get 100+ beakers 1 AD, 250 beakers 1000 AD... I suck at tech rate. Cottages everywhere, GP farm, run scientists etc... = only 100 beakers?!?!?!? :dunno:Who knows. I know that my bureaucracy capital sucks - (just got CS recently though) and i need to cottage that as much as possible. No academy either cause i really needed to bulb philosophy/compass/paper just to have any chance of keeping up in tech. Got national epic in Persepolis running 6 or 7 scientists there.

    Still am in a decent position to win this. I always do so great with wars, and never am good at getting tech rate up really high - i don't know why i ever stop warring... Good thing you don't usually need a great tech rate to win on emperor!!! Just a good tech path leading to the trades. I'd imagine on immortal it becomes more important. Probably need to switch back to slavery and whip courthouses everywhere. Maybe i should have deleted some of my army and replaced them with fewer but stronger modern guys to save on maintenance.



    I know buddhism hasn't spread to me - but christianity has - maybe a better strategy would be switch to that, get willem to friendly and war my way west... That might be a better idea - willem and i could probably pull way out in tech, slowing those other guys down since we'd stop trading with them completely. I'm gonna have to make sure i'm ready to fight Sal the minute i switch religions - at least defend those 2 NW cities that we share borders on. On 2nd thought - i bet i can get willem to friendly once i hit free religion. Maybe i should just wait until after lib...





    edit:
    @Michmbk
    Spoiler :

    At the end of my spoiler i was saying how i started thinking maybe keeping willem around for friendly tech trading while warring westward looked better. From 1 AD to 1000 AD all i was thinking was go for rifling/military tradition to take out willem but i started to 2nd guess that - reading about how you took him out, but was way behind the west really makes me think i might be gearing up to fight Sal soon, not Willem.
     
  16. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Tempesta:

    Spoiler :

    I totally agree about leaving willem. If I had it to do over again, I'd rush Persia to have two capitals, and then send a settler to block the west chokepoint. Then do everything I could to get Willem to friendly and keep him on the other side of the desert (to avoid culture pressure). He and I could then tech trade instead of be at war. I had done a detailed writeup up to the point where I gave in - in rereading it, it was very clear that Willem shouldn't have been the concern. There's a natural desert blockade between his land and yours, so he's likely to only put creative pressure on you in one place (southeast). Focus on culture in your border city on that side, and military on the other, and it should be easier.

    I'm not much for replaying games, but I may try with that one. I did do a save just before the rush, so maybe I'll give it another go at that point.
     
  17. Tempesta13

    Tempesta13 Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Yeah i agree. That's why writing reports and looking at other games helps so much. While complaining of my crappy tech rate when writing my report i think i realized most of the reason for it. :crazyeye: And writing my report/reading yours made me realize Willem might be a better trading partner than victim. I always get tunnel vision while playing - it's so much easier to play in short sessions, and take some time to actually think about what you're doing before you keep going. For tough games anyway...

    I also firmly believe that i'm still pretty much a Monarch level player, who just can figure out how to win on almost all Emperor level games now. Anything out of the ordinary (tech horseback riding, what?!!?!?) throws me off. Well, my tech rate/cities specialization is monarch level anyway :lol: I win more than i lose on Emperor so it's a good level for me now. I never believed in "mastering" a skill level. As soon as i easily win a couple "average set up" games it's time to move up - When i'm ready to master emperor - i'll do it by figuring out how to win on immortal!

    This isn't too bad of a game to replay compared to an average game. (Keshik abuse, good choke point to get)- i also hate replaying but i think it helps. Everyone always says "play the map" but the map never tells me what that means! Sometimes it takes a 2nd try to really play the map - first try ends up being an example of what won't work on the map. It really comes from more experience, not learning how to "read" the map. I had never played Genghis before these two games. I've done exactly 1 horse archer rush ever - never built a Keshik until Friday. Too be honest, i looked up the prereqs for horseback riding before starting the MS VIII game!!! All you need is animal husbandry apparently! Then archery = Keshiks, ok got it... :thumbsup:
     
  18. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    I think we're in a pretty similar skill set. Monarch games pretty well come easy for me now. I'm also 4 for 6 on emperor now, but 2 of those were handpicked to be easy games (that learning series). I think I'll probably stick with emperor for now as well - more of a challenge than monarch. But I definitely need to do more of these short spurts - that second genghis game I played almost all in a row without breaks - the breaks tend to make it easier to refocus.
     
  19. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Spoiler :


    I replayed this from right before the Persia rush - still rushed Persia, but while doing that, moved to aggressively block land. Still limping along in tech, but I just got my libraries down, and am able to run scientists to get to alphabet and aesthetics. That'll allow me the trade bait to catch up and bulb down the lib line. I purposely didn't accept confucianism from Willem - kind of waiting for a missionary from the hindus. I also moved to block Willem and to claim the blocking city to the west. Borders on both sides about to pop, and that'll seal all my land.

    I probably won't continue from here, but this would have probably been the winning strategy - it's tough to rex this much with genghis though, because I'm limping right now in tech - empire looks like this though - once the bulbs come in and the cottages mature, it'll turn:




     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    No major update but it's just before 700 AD for me:

    Spoiler :
    I expanded peacefully to 9 cities, and took nationalism off lib in 685 AD. I have ~ 20 turns on military tradition and already have gunpowder. I'm working in gers/workshops in hammer cities and I've set EP focus to darius. Everyone on the continent is hindu. I just traded for optics also so I'm going to try for circumnavigation -----> possibly I will delay killing darius in favor of taking out AIs that will be heathen and likely very backward. Since it's a massive hindu love fest other than darius who went FR, I might opt for UN or possibly even AP even though I didn't build it. Probably UN though. I'm not far behind #1 pop so wiping out 2 civs should get me there. I'll play it by ear.


    I like playing leaders with an economy trait like this :p.
     

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