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Second Leaders: Which Civs Need Them?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by The Kingmaker, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Given some of the current conversations I've seen about various leaders on the forums, I thought it might be time to "take the pulse" a bit and determine which civs everyone thinks could use a second leader, which leader you want, and why.

    I'll start off with a few caveats. My idea of what constitutes an actual leader have changed over time. I used to be more persnickety about which leaders ought to be included, obsessing over who was a "real" leader of the civ. I have since come to the conclusion that the things that matter most are whether a given leader is iconic, representative of their culture, and fun in terms of their depiction and personality. I've left aside most other considerations.

    In determining whether a given civ needs a second leader at all, my main considerations are whether the current leader adequately represents my expectations for how that civ should act, or if there is a different facet of that civ that is significant enough to be represented by a second leader. I think the Pericles/Gorgo differences are a great example of this.

    Now to get down to a just a few ideas for civs needing second leaders.

    Note: we're already expecting that Spain may get Isabella sometime down the road.

    1. India

    The obvious place to start. A lot of people seem to be suffering from Gandhi fatigue.

    My main suggestion would be Ashoka. After some initial warmongering, he converted to Buddhism, became a pacifist (well, sort of) and committed himself to good governance. Under Ashoka, India should be friendly, religious, cultural and non-aggressive unless provoked (and then Ashoka should respond with fury). He could get some bonus cards for government as a trait.

    Some people also want to see Akbar for India. My concern is that he might be even more aggressive than Gandhi. Also, some people want to see a separate Mughal civ a la Macedon, which might rule him out if that happens.

    2. Russia

    Russia hasn't always been known as progressive. I recommend Ivan the Terrible be included to serve as a counterpoint to Peter's forward thinking agenda. Ivan has a big personality and would be a challenging opponent. He could get the strelets/stretlsy musket unit as part of his leader trait. As his agenda, he could just receive a second secret agenda to represent his unstable personality. The agenda could even just be called "Grozny."

    Some people want to see Stalin here, but I think Firaxis has tried to distance themselves from dictators as of late. There's a reason we haven't seen Stalin or Mao for the better part of a decade. While Ivan was not a nice guy either, at least there's no one still living whose family members he actively tortured or killed.

    3. Egypt

    The obvious suggestion here is Ramses. Instead of Cleo's cozying up to strong neighbors, Ramses might clash with neighbors with strong militaries. Or he might be a reverse Qin and dislike you if your wonders do not equal or exceed his own.

    A more eclectic suggestion could be Akhenaten, who would be über-religious but also very diplomatic and eager to trade. Agenda or ability could be: "Aten Worshipper" or "Amarna Letters."

    4. China

    Wu Zetian might be the default choice here because of a need for more female leaders. She could focus more on science and education than wonder-building.

    Emperor Taizong is another good possibility. He's already been in CivRev2 and the Chinese version of Civ4 (as Mao's replacement). The main concern would be differentiating him enough from Qin.

    Probably not Mao. See above re: Stalin. Plus China seems to dislike his portrayal in games.

    5. France

    Lots of great options. I propose Cardinal Richelieu. He's infamous but might just be too similar to Catherine in his underhanded agenda. Louis XIV could be a cultural expansionist. Unlike some fans, I really don't have a problem with Joan of Arc. Although a military leader, she's also a religious and cultural icon. I'd prefer not to see Napoleon this time. He's been done a lot already and I'm tired of his bad behavior, esp. In Civ4 and Civ5.

    6. England

    Henry VIII. He's iconic and a big personality. I have a whole thread in the ideas forum on why/how he could be a great addition.

    If not Henry, then I'd love to see Alfred the Great. It'd be awesome to have an English leader speaking Old English (Anglo-Saxon). He'd be strong all around -- religion, culture, military, infrastructure. Unique ability could be "Burhs" or "Burghal Hidage." Free wooden palisade walls around districts, perhaps.

    No William the Conqueror or Richard the Lionhearted, if only because no one wants an English leader who mainly speaks French! ;) I'd still prefer a medieval or renaissance leader since Victoria is from the industrial age, hence my earlier suggestions.

    There are lots of other possibilities. Which civs do you think deserve a second leader, which leaders should be included, and why?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    A while back, someone posited the idea that multi-leaders are only being used for civs that are made up of conglomerated independent entities. Like Greece having 2 leaders from different city states. It was proposed that Italy could work the same way. Italy would come with two leaders from different city-states also, thereby avoiding the use of Rome as the capital.

    I'm rather fond of that suggestion.
     
  3. MisterChau

    MisterChau Chieftain

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    I always thought the initial idea behind multiple leaders was for multiple victories or to represent different times of that country.

    For example, Japan has Hojo at the moment who is aimed at a Domination victory and represents the rise of the Samurai caste. Meanwhile, Himiko could be added to represent the Religious victory and Shinto's upbringing, or Emperor Meiji for the Science victory (in this case, the UA would have to be renamed or replaced which I doubt they would do) for making Japan a bigger modern power than it used to be.

    Same goes for France, though the UA in general makes France aimed at a Culture Victory, they could still add good ol' Napoleon for the Domination victory (wonder boost to stuff like Alhambra to help militarily) and Joan of Arc for Religious victory. Again, different times of the same culture that represent a shift in that country's ideologies, technologies, so on.

    But looking at Greece (the only one with 2 leaders atm) I can see the independent entities idea with Athenian Democracy led by Pericles and Spartan Oligarchy led by Gorgo.
     
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  4. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I've got a whole thread in the ideas forum advocating a multi-leader Italy to represent multiple Italian entities. :)

    However, I don't think they're going to limit themselves to just civs compromised of different entities, as the work they were doing on Spain seems to indicate otherwise.
     
    Banazir864 and nzcamel like this.
  5. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I am biased as an American, but I would like us to receive a second leader. Just by significant name I would have to say Lincoln (bonus centered around either the homestead or the morall acts, improving farming or university production/output, to keep away from Teddy's military and cultural orientation), though if I want to go in a very different direction I would say going with JFK for a space race/cold war bonus (emphasis on science over Teddy's culture/national parks) could work.
     
  6. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I have JFK on my "I need to learn how to mod" list as a Space Race leader. His LUA has science buildings contributing production to district projects and his agenda is Brinksmanship, he really doesn't like military units close to his border.
     
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  7. Txomin

    Txomin Chieftain

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    I've thought Nezahualcoyotl to be a good idea for an alternate "Aztec" leader. He was a ruler of Texcoco one of the three cities in the Triple Alliance (along with Tenochtitlan and Tlacopan) and could provide both a different capital and a different play style from Moctezuma. Nezahualcoyotl is renowned as an architect and poet whose Nahuatl poems survive into the present day. Maybe an ability geared towards culture.
    I'm not sure if there necessarily needs to be another leader for the civ, but I'd like to see someone other than Moctezuma for once.
     
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  8. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I thought it was funny that after featuring Montezuma II in the first four games, they finally switched to a different leader in Civ5 and Civ6... Montezuma I. ;)
     
  9. Cliomancer

    Cliomancer Chieftain

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    I had been wanting to make a post suggesting new leaders for existing civs but this one beat me to it.

    England
    William the Conquerer: Domesday Book. Gains gold upon acquisition of tiles, increasing if they include a resource or belonged to another civ.

    America
    Franklin Delano Roosevelt: Probably something focused on his economic legacy, though we've already got a New Deal policy.
     
    Ozymandias9891 likes this.
  10. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Rome:

    Marcus Aurelius - a philosophical leader who nevertheless does not shun expansionism, for a more cultured Rome

    Constantine - maybe if they are planning a Roman/Byzantine mashup

    Nero - for a decadent, untrustworthy Rome. Bonuses for demolishing his own districts. His theme music can be an off-key version of Greece's. (Watch Quo Vadis with Peter Ustinov.) :p
     
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  11. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    "Which Civs Need Them?"
    ANY AND ALL Civs that lasted more than a generation, since the Leaders are being used to show unique differences between civilizations.

    The longer the civilization lasted, the more different Leaders you're going to need to represent all the facets of that Civ. The Modding Community has produced, by my count, about 6 - 8 each different England/British, Russian, Chinese, Egyptian, or American Leaders in Civ V.

    And, based on what Civ VI has done so far, you don't even have to have an actual 'Ruler' or Monarch from the modern State as a Ruler, they can be from a predecessor, (Frederick Barbarossa for Germany) or a sub-unit (both Greek leaders).

    So, here are a few thought on specific leaders...

    First, get Ivan right: "Ivan the Terrible" is a really bad translation of Ivan Grozhny. Better would be either Ivan the Fearsome or Ivan the Mighty - I like the latter, myself. He can even have a Wonder specifically associated with him: he built St Basil's (colorful) Cathedral in Moscow, a potential Religious-boosting wonder. Also both religious and expansionist, can have the Streltsy Unique Unit and whenever he conquers a city, he reduces the defenses of all other cities in that Civ ('Sack of Novgorod' - enducing Terror - Thanx to the Modder who put this in the Ivan IV Mod in Civ V)

    Next, for England/Britain, how about Edward I "Long Shanks"? Expansionist type with a Special Unit, the Longbowman, associated with him.

    And for the US of A:
    Thomas Jefferson - Peaceful Expansionist: all scouts get a Diplomatic ability (one Envoy/Scout?), Science and Culture booster as well
    Harry Truman - inherits the 'Gandhi Effect' from earlier Civs - he'll Nuke You in a heartbeat!
     
  12. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I like your Ivan ideas. I expect the "terrible" epithet would still come with him, despite the inaccuracy, just because that is how he is commonly known in English. They may just call him Ivan IV though.

    It would be nice to release St Basil's with him, kind of how the Apadana was packaged with Cyrus.

    St Basil's has been in Civ before, although it was mislabeled as the Kremlin in Civ4.
     
  13. Cliomancer

    Cliomancer Chieftain

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    I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of Andrew Jackson as a US leader whose unique ability "Prolific Duellist" involves wiping a chunk of accumulated Great People Points from other civs each time America advances to a new era.
     
  14. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    France: I've come to accept Catherine; she may not be overly historically significant but she's fun in game. That said, I'd like to see someone who better represents France: Louis XIV, Francis II, Louis IX...

    England: Victoria was not the queen of England; she was the queen of the United Kingdom. Anyone English would be satisfactory. A Stewart would be a very interesting if unpopular choice (James I, please); a Tudor is most probable (I'd like to see Elizabeth I, but Henry VIII is perhaps more likely); someone earlier would be unexpected but welcome (Henry V?). After Macedon, I'd like to see Alfred the Great of Wessex, not England.

    Persia: Cyrus has a very aggressive playstyle; I'd love to see a more peace-oriented Persian ruler. I suppose Darius I is unlikely, but how about Shappur II?

    China: Could they have a made a safer choice? Nothing wrong with Qin Shi Huang...but compared to other choices he just feels like an uninspired choice. How about Taizong? I'd even be okay with Wu Zetian; sure, we've got a lot of female rulers and people complained about her in Civ5--but she was an accomplished emperor in her own right, and I think being the only female ruler in all of Chinese history is a major accomplishment.

    Egypt: Cleopatra was Greek; she's fun in game but can we have an Egyptian pharaoh please? I feel like Ramesses II kind of overlaps with Qin Shi Huang as a wonder-building egomaniac (but then again, so do Jadwiga and Philip II), so I'd prefer to see Akhenaten.

    America: I'd like to see an early president. My pick would be John Adams (what could be more fun than pugnacious and irascible Adams?), but I'd be A-okay with Washington.
     
  15. Manifold

    Manifold ModderProtectionAdvocate

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    These are also my favorites:)

    It is just a game, or?

    I suggest some Pharaoh of the old Old Kingdom. Maybe "Menes" the founder of the First Dynasty.
    In the game he could be a very early conqueror with a club in the hand who does not like cowards. His LUA could be that conquered cities have no penalties until a peace deal and Cattles bring an adjacent bonus +1 to districts.


    I like her, but maybe they can find another female leader for China?

    He would be great!

    Henry VIII could be funny, but what was his great deed for mankind again????

    I guess one when not the most important English guy in world history (he and Churchill) was

    Oliver Cromwell.

    He was the first to roll the king´s head and liberated the normal people from the yoke. The global impact of this act can not be assesses high enough. Perhaps the US nowadays would have a king if he had not been.

    He could try to win a religious victory for England. As his agenda he did not like government monarchy. His LUA "New Model Army" should be that melee units did not cost maintenance because they were fanatics.


    7. Rome

    There is an emperor so second leader should be a republic consul like Scipio Africanus who defeated Hannibal at the final battle of Zama.
    His agenda tells him that he did not like Civs with more trade routes. His LUA "Gens Cornelia" could be that the roman empire get a free great general with the invention of the tech: military tactics. And he always has a casus belli when he starts a war.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  16. altayrneto

    altayrneto Chieftain

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    I fully agree with you, but there's an option for a sovietic Russia: Lenin. Yes, he is controversial, but above all of the socialist/communist leaders, he is maybe the "less" controversial (he is even in CivRevII). His Leader Bonus could be NEP (or "One step backward and two steps forward") that convert the faith generated by Russia in production and science. Anyway, besides him there are also Catherine and Ivan, and both are solid options for aditional leaders.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  17. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I had considered Lenin; I just found Ivan to be much more "flavorful" as a possible character in Civ. Just think of his animations! His reactions! :)

    Catherine has been very popular since her introduction in CivII, but we might not see her this time around since France has also been given a leader named Catherine.
     
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  18. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    A couple more because I was in a rush before:

    Russia: I want Catherine the Great back.

    India: Literally anyone. Shah Jehan would be my choice, or Chandragupta Maurya.

    She was the only female ruler of China, unless you count regents like Empress Dowager Cixi--but only Wu Zetian ruled in her own name, in her own right. Also Cixi's reign kind of sort of left China a wreck (not that that seems to preclude a ruler's inclusion: Catherine de Medici and Cleopatra also ended their reigns with their respective nations lower in status than when they began--not that that was Cleopatra's fault, but still...).
     
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  19. Xandinho

    Xandinho Warlord

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    For France, I want to see Napoleon. He should offer interesting gameplay with a unique agenda and skill.

    For Germany, I would like to see Otto von Bismarck. A more modern version of Germany.

    England, I do not mind seeing the Queen Elizabeth I again. But Henry VIII would also be a welcome choice.

    America, I do not care who will get the position, but I get the impression that Gerge Washington will pick it up.

    And for India, I really need Ashoka or some oldest Indian leader.

    I can only think of these for now, while I am well convinced that Russia, China, Egypt, Rome and perhaps Japan and Spain will also receive alternative leaders.
     
  20. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    It would be interesting to see a left field alt leader, such as Franklin Pierce of the United States (he's known for the Gadsden Purchase; he could purchase tiles from other civs, with the other civ receiving gold from him, as well as a diplomatic penalty).
     

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