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Second Leaders: Which Civs Need Them?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by The Kingmaker, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. Vahnstad

    Vahnstad Chieftain

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    I only know Tony Abbott, but imo they shouldn't have been a civ. I live in Belgium too. It would be quite dumb if we got one too. :D
     
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  2. luigilime

    luigilime Chieftain

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    Usually no-one knows Australian history because there isn't much to say, like for the US but the latter one existed for more time and played a big role in the world stage so they have a bit more history to back them up.
     
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  3. Manifold

    Manifold ModderProtectionAdvocate

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    I believe the USA have won the game in reality already :cowboy:Australia is trying to win the ESC:dance:I love Australia but even the actual implementation is boring and too modern.
    On principle I like historical Civs much more. We need more variety in Mesopotamia/Egypt/Crete/Rome/China/India that´s the point. After that and many more we can talk about Australia in an interesting way with Kangaroos, Terra Australis, Aborigines, Dingos, penal colony, gold rush, Gallipoli Campaign, John Curtin...
     
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  4. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Well, we're finally getting one second leader. I've got to say, India did need it the most.

    I'm not sure how many more we're likely to get, but I'd like to re-iterate a couple of suggestions:

    England: Alfred the Great or Henry VIII
    Russia: Ivan the Terrible
    France: Louis XIV
    Egypt: Ramses II or Khufu

    Most civs don't really need a second leader, but these few could still do with alternate personalities.
     
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  5. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Oh wow Alfred, that Saxon guy. Why place him under William the conquer, I wonder?

    As I rmb the standard English history started with William in 1066, right? Before him, England was fractions of lands called Wessex, Essex, Whateverssex

    although he was a norman... well that will mix France and England...
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  6. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Personally, I'd rather have Charles DeGaulle as a French leader, myself. And maybe William Gladstone (NOT Victoria, who had no political power and only made ceremonial decisions such as where compromise capitals of new Dominions where disagreement existed would be (such as Ottawa and Canberra), or maybe Winston Churchill for two new British options. The Egyptian ones are good (far better than the descendent of one of the Macedonian generals who chopped up Alexander the Great's empire like a piece of meat after his death), and Ivan the Terrible is a good one too, but (skirting the very borders and penumbra of controversy), maybe Leonid Brezhnev as well. I bring up these French, British, and Russian alternatives because I feel that civs like them and a few others with long histories that still exist and have changed or reformed their governments several times in their history always end up VERY monarch heavy in Firaxis leader portrayals.
     
  7. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I veered early for England because they already have a relatively late leader and I would like to represent another era in their long history.

    Alfred is awesome. Only English King called "the Great," currently starring in two tv series and has his own video game coming out too, Thrones of Britannia. Military, religious, scientific, diplomatic powerhouse.

    Never William the Conqueror, a foreign enemy who terrorized and massacred the English. And can you imagine an English leaderhead that only spoke French?

    I s'pose I could see DeGaulle for France, though he's not really my favorite person. Richelieu might do-- still syncs with Civ6's espionage-y France but could bring in a different aspect as a cardinal, not a monarch.

    Unique Leader Ability could be called Carte Blanche.

    As for Russia, Ivan the Terrible is far enough in the past that there's no one alive who directly experienced his tyranny or lost family members to him, unlike all the Soviet options.
     
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  8. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    I've just listed the ones I most want in my signature...
    Additional leader wishlist: Empress Dowager Cixi (China), Queen Nzinga Mbande (Kongo), Abraham Lincoln (America), Napoleon Bonaparte (France), Augustus Caesar (Rome), Catherine II (Russia).

    I especially want an additional leader for China, but that being said, I will not buy the game if they add Mao Zedong. It would be better to leave China with just one leader, than to add him.
     
  9. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    France- Agree, although Catherine is worthy as a leader herself too. She was the de facto ruler alone. France is too weak at the moment so it is really needing a new ruler to buff.

    Egypt- Cleo did come up the moment you talk about Egypt. Ramessess didn't appear immediately though. Egypt is not weak as a whole so I suppose it is not the urgent case. But I would like to see Egyptian leaders like Ramsey, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten....

    Russia- totally agree. Peter's ability just saddens me. That guy going for relgious route? you must be kidding. The civ ability is too overwhelming itself I guess, so Firaxis dared not to make him too strong... maybe a nerf in the ability will create room for another leader

    England- Victoria is cute. No, I meant, she is strong vs AI. But her uniques come quite late in game. That makes her weak in multiplayer. So alternative leader is a welcome future.

    Norway- actually no one wish to buff poor vikings? They are really so underrated...

    China- China has a weaker civ ability, creating much more room for another leader. While Qin is not too weak in total, his play style is too regular. I guess another leader can make things more interesting?

    But probably I am not voting for Wuzetian this time. Even if we are making her return.... make her relevant to history. Wuzetian's strength lies in interrogation and torturing suspected rebels, improving imperial examiniation and pious to Buddhism( if nth else)

    Sumer- Daddy Gilgamesh is too op, I must agree. But can Sumer have another leader? Akkadians, Assyrians, Babylonions, Elamites... all of them are kind of Sumerian but yet distinct entities. I wonder if making another suitable leader available?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  10. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    I actually gave a diatribe on the Female Leaders thread as to why Cixi would be a bad choice. When she held de facto power, the Mandate of Heaven and it's authority and traditions were crumbling, China was suffering internal rebellions, famines, and economic chaos, it's vassal states in East and Southeast Asia were abandoning recognition of Imperial suzerainty, humiliating military defeats and treaties were being handed down liberally from European powers, Americans, and Japanese, and the very foundations of the 2000-year-old or so Chinese Empire being brought crashing down. Shortly after her death, the child Emperor Piyu was "convinced" by Sun Yat-sen, Yuan Shikai, and others to abdicate with no stated successor, and the Republic of China was declared several weeks afterward (and four years after that the tumultuous Warlords Period began in China). This is NOT a leader whose times and achievements are at all on par with the established and seriously considered other leaders.
     
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  11. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    If you look at the case of Cleopatra and Montezuma II, probably you won't feel bad to see Cixi at all.

    Ancient Egypt lost her last glory with Cleopatra while the great Aztec empire crumbled almost immediately after Montezuma, with their capital reduced to dust.

    Cixi, a woman never walked out of the palace, managed to hold the dying empire alone. And she put down the rebels one by one actually and held the scarred country in roughly a whole. She was no worse than any other emperors, if not better.

    They all lead her country to face the crossroads of history. Although they failed, that doesnt make them bad choices. It was the tides that defeat them, not because they are weak. And I won't say that leaders must be picked from their glorious ages. Sometimes, to hold a crumbling empire is harder than building wonders and glory.

    Qin was the opening of imperial chinese and Cixi the one closing the last chapter. I think thats kind of Romantic to have them both appear in the game.
     
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  12. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Well, why not just have Czar Nicholas II too. He can have a special improvement called the Duma, and a famous figure named Rasputin, but if both are active at once, the Duma will plot repeatedly to assassinate Rasputin. :p
     
  13. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Impressive, i can only say.

    You shall ask this to Firaxis, together with why Cleo and Montezuma are here.
     
  14. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    And sorry, I admit that was a bit flippant, and I certainly understood and appreciated your. I just couldn't resist that one there. Forgive me.
     
  15. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Its okay. :)
     
  16. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Wrong Montezuma. While Monty II has been included before, Civ6's Monty is Montezuma I. As for Cleo, she was a poor choice...for many reasons. She was a brilliant woman who made the best of a doomed situation, but out of ~2,000 years of Egyptian history, there were not only better options, but better female options, to choose from. Likewise, I'd rather see Wu Zetian than Cixi, personally.
     
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  17. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Note that the Montezuma in Civ5 and 6 is the conqueror Montezuma I, not the unfortunate Montezuma II.

    Edit: great minds think alike.
     
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  18. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Thankyou, I am aware of that, but I am taking the entire game series as a whole.

    Indeed there are a lot of other options for egypt... But most of them only had their names written and no one really knows the details of their reign. Even Hatshepsut and Nefertiti suffer a lack of historic details when you come to that. Cleo has got a more complete character, although it was somehow the work of many un-realistic writers.

    Sure, but make her the real Wuzetian. If I see her spamming Chuko Nu and got that "war tactic" ability, I will never buy the game again.
     
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  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    One can do some reading between the lines for Hatshepsut, but sure, aside from what we can gather from her effectiveness as a ruler she's not a big personality. As for Nefertititi, well, Akhenaten and his artists sometimes told us more than we wanted to know. :p As far as Egyptian rulers* go, probably the only pharaohs who can even come close to Akhenaten and Nefertiti in the "big personality" department are Ramesses and Nefertary (who honestly I'd be quicker to accept than Nefertiti: Nefertary was co-regent with her husband, the only Egyptian queen to be so; Nefertiti was enormously influential on her husband's policies and may have been a pharaoh herself briefly, but still didn't have the official standing Nefertary did). And Ramesses is mostly a big personality for really, really loving himself. :p (That's unfair: he obviously really loved Nefertary too. Maybe almost as much as himself. :p ) Some other pharaohs, as with Hatshepsut, you can read between the lines and pick up on some personality, but yeah, not as easily.

    *Not counting those Macedonian usurpers.
     
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  20. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Reading between lines... you mean to imagine right? Though it is not encouraged for the sake of historical accuracy, I do not object to this. Creativity is as important as the accuracy here, I supposed.

    Em... for Nefertiti, I remember she was the co-regent with Akhenaten too? You know... egyptian political arts tend to paint more important figures as larger size, facing a certain direction or offering tributes to gods.

    Nefertiti was certainly qualified for this, regardless her co-regency was mentioned or not.

    For Nefertari(y), this is brand new. Can you explain a bit, aside from being formal co-regent, did she achieve anything in her reign, should she ever rule? I don't know much about her aside from her title of great royal wife and her temple in Abu Simbel. Ramsey's image was shadowing anything she did.

    And this suddenly comes across me. For co-regents, can we make them appear together in one screen? Lol that should be amusing
     

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