1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Selling the Palace?

Discussion in 'Civ1 - General Discussions' started by Posidonius, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Posidonius

    Posidonius Civherder

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    US of gawldarn A
    I grow big worlds, so once the rival civ(s) are under control, start looking for a new capital. The original one is never founded atop railway lines, and later in the game those extra food and trade are a nice happy. The game rarely starts you off in 4000 BC right in the center of a big continent. So i find a better site, RR the spot, put a city there, and once it's big enough to pat on the head, it builds a new Palace. Sell the one in the old capital just before completing the new one. Never sold my Palace for any other reason, and only go Palace-less for that one turn.

    But have seen other civs do it: sell their Palace for 200 gp early in a game. Now it makes me wonder, is that a valid strategy for a human player, or only a desperate ploy by an imperiled AI civ? Have any of you CFFers done that, and if so what were the reasons and the results? Heck, i don't know, maybe everyone always sells their Palace right off the bat every time and i just never knew?

    4000 BC starts with Despotism and one city, so the Palace doesn't do you any good right away. But, if quickdirty math is right, and you started the game with Bronze from the gods, can a fast 200 gp get you 3 veteran Phalanxes by 3880 BC? Or is it Phalanxoi? Is that an advantage which outweighs having a Palace? It means a lion's share of random huts, and a decent chance of catching a couple of your neighboring rival civs with their pants down. Two kills and a captured city in 3700 is a good start.

    Or, say that 4000 BC starts with Pottery from the gods and a shield-heavy river system. 200 gp suddenly appears, and that's a Militia in 3960, a Granary in 3820, and a Settler in 3780. 10 moves under the Mil's belt by then means that you know where a 2nd city goes, and another Settler is now coming in half the time. Two close cities by 3700 BC, a unit walking around exploring, the Granary in the capital allows an overload of military units, or a steady birthing of new cities, whichever course the layout gives you. A fourth city in 3420 with 3 more Settlers being built, that's a fine start.

    Can think of more uses for a free and early 200 gp, depending on the scenario's starting techs and landscape. But is it ever worth it? At some point, the bane of being without a Palace must outweigh the early boost. The question is, does that point usually come before or after, the turn when your civ has the capability to build a new Palace?
     
  2. SWY

    SWY Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    329
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I'm not sure of all the effects of a Palace yet, but the palace prevents corruption (this advantage is void under Democracy) and as far as I know, without a Palace, you cannot construct a Spaceship.
     
  3. Mize

    Mize Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    264
    Theoretically the cash can be useful for building quick settlers for early city spam as your first city will not be destroyed when it builds a settler, even if it is size 1. Another possible good use is to speed up the Colossus, and then later either rebuild the palace or switch to democracy. I believe you CAN build SS parts without a palace. At least the AI can - that's the most frustrating bit, an AI player without a capital can only be knocked out of the space race through utter destruction.
     
  4. Posidonius

    Posidonius Civherder

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    US of gawldarn A
    Ahh, i was wrong this whole time. In some games, i have gathered a squad of Diplomats around an enemy capital, then sent them in, as saboteurs all at once, just to try and wipe out an opponent's Palace, thinking that would prevent them from building a SS. I like your idea about the Colossus, 200 gp would pay for half of it, and the investment should pay for itself pretty quickly. Still wondering, at what point does your lack of a Palace become a real problem?
     
  5. Mize

    Mize Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    264
    At about the point you start needing actual trade arrows over shields, I'd guess. Corruption is like 99% when you don't have a palace, so cities will generate 1 useful trade, and the rest is wasted. Courthouse slightly alleviates that to maybe 40% waste or something of that sort.
     
  6. Posidonius

    Posidonius Civherder

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    US of gawldarn A
    Oh boy, having trouble making it work in any way i try it. Had some success in a game where the AI started me off with Alphabet, Pottery and Masonry, because you need Masonry to build a new Palace. Catch-22: if you don't start with Masonry, you will never get it, because selling the Palace shuts down all Science. Did a handful of tests, and seems like the idea of selling your Palace immediately is a strategy with only a niche application.
     
  7. Mize

    Mize Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    264
    If I remember well, people who say they do use it rely on pyramids and early democracy to make it work.
     
  8. CopperPlate

    CopperPlate Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    I've won a game where I used the gold to win a quick millitary victory, but time is your enemy as you'll quickly fall behind on research. Camps can make up for it though.
     
  9. Posidonius

    Posidonius Civherder

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    US of gawldarn A
    Well, now, hold the phone.

    As soon as i give up on the idea, it suddenly works out. Tried the trick in a game where my only starting tech was Alphabet, and instead of using the 200 gp for Settlers to get up to 6 cities at a blistering pace, used the cash for Barracks and Militias, as CopperPlate suggested above. Like everyone else i poo-pooh the Militia for being a useless weakling, but if you have two and they're veterans, and you catch a nearby rival with only one non-veteran Militia before 3800 BC, you can squish one enemy very, very quickly. A Mil can only do one attack per turn, unlike a Cav or Char, so you are not likely to capture an enemy city unless they leave a size-2 city ungarrisoned, which they never do.

    Anyway, i built some Militias and went looking, had Washington into rubble very fast. The early date meant i could seal off a border with India on their side of a 1-square chokepoint, giving me much more territory than Gandhi had on his side of the isthmus. If i hadn't hustled over there, India would have spilled out into the lush lands on my side of the land-bridge.

    A hut turned into my 2nd city, and with great luck, the town had 6 shield-rivers in its edible area. With that growth, i could re-home veteran Militias to share the military load between two cities. Met the Babylonians, killed their two cities, and found Greeks on the other side of Babylon. Killed Greek Militias on the way through four more Greek cities before Athens, only captured one for keepsies. By then, i had the larger half of a Very Large Continent to myself, and a couple boats off searching for more victims.

    With so many units, was in position to check a Zulu Settler as soon as it spawned when i wiped out Babylon, being able to see the omalos, i knew where the Zulu Settler was, as soon as he winked in. With another unit over there, i corralled and herded the larval Zulu civ up onto a mountain, where he will remain until the end of the world. That makes this game a candidate to go for the full 128 cities. I probably won't because so far, this planet has more than its share of mountain ranges.

    It's just a test game, and proved its point. Didn't start with Masonry or Pottery or BronzeWork, and so far in this game, 3 huts have turned into explosive nests of Barbys. Only captured one rival city, but took out 4 rival civs, built back the Palace, and expanded to 12 cities.

    The key turns out to be the binary choice of Taxes or Science. With no Palace, every city has only 1 trade-arrow to contribute. At 50-50 Tax-Sci, you get 1 gp for each city. At 40-60, you get one science bulb per turn. Mitigating the curse depends on three things. First, you have more units so you get plenty of early huts before someone else finds them. Second, promiscuous tech trading with the rivals you meet keeps you from falling too far behind. Third, and most important, you must switch back and forth between 50-50 Tax-Sci and 40-60, every 5-10 turns. Don't run out of money, keep building new cities, and still adding science, but slowly.
     
  10. divec

    divec Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    I've found selling the palace can work really well if you get two settlers at the start of the game, because you can get it to award you a second palace.
    • Use one settler to found a city, say Rome, on desert (or other square with less than two food).
    • Immediately sell the palace for 200°, and turn the single inhabitant into an entertainer.
    • Two turns later, Rome dies of famine.
    • Then use the other settler to found your first "permanent" city, Caesarea: it has a brand new palace!
    • Use the 200° to switch-buy three settlers in quick succession (or even four, with a bit of luck from huts and a forest square to sustain enough shields).
    • There will be a food deficit, but you can cope with this for a short time.
    • As soon as the final settler is built, start founding cities. Do this before famine kills Caesarea.
    It's not too hard to get five cities by 3500 BC this way, and you don't have to cope without a palace.
     
    Tristan_C likes this.
  11. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,271
    Above chieftain you have to grow the city to size 2 to rush the settlers, right? Unless there is an arcane rule I'm not aware of that prevents your first city from poofing when it builds a settler at size 1.

    How about performing the first 3 steps of your procedure, and then attempting -- or using darkpanda's RNG manipulation -- or save-scumming -- to pop an advanced tribe with the remaining NONE settler?! Will the advanced tribe get a palace?

    edit
    ^ Yep this works

    edit 2
    and the arcane rule does indeed exist
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  12. Mize

    Mize Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    264
    Yes, the arcane rule is that a size 1 city will not disband when it builds a settler, as long as it's your only city.
     
  13. divec

    divec Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Cunning :)

    And I see unfortunately it won't be easy to iterate that idea again, because you could sell that second palace but starving the city will take too long, because advanced tribes only happen on squares with 2+ food. (I guess you could rush-mine the land to forest: you can't do the settler cancel-reapply trick directly in the city, but you could do it outside the city to "power up" the settler just the right amount, before going into the city).
     

Share This Page