Semi-isolated Start on Emperor

Freedom

Warlord
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Jul 15, 2005
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I just tried my first serious game on Emperor (Epic speed/Standard size/Continents as Ragnar of the Vikings) and it ended in a loss. :( To recap major events of the game :
-> I started on a continent with Mao and Hannibal. My start had insane production, but absolutely horrible commerce. Carthage had exactly the opposite, basically a dream capital with nearly all riverside Flood Plains/grasslands, cows, and some other food resource afaik. Major events of the game include :
-> I beelined bronze working so I could axe rush Carthage because I wanted that delicious capital and it was so close. Unfortunately, SOMEHOW, no copper or horses anywhere nearby so I was basically stuck with a powerhouse production capital with nothing to build. I considered restarting at this point.
-> I painfully researched iron working and luckily iron was in the capital's BFC. I sword-rushed Carthage easily and suddenly the game was looking up. I had heavily promoted Swordsmen and great land.
-> Unfortunately Mao decided to plunk a city a couple tiles away from where I wanted Carthage's former capital to be (it gained some more riverside floodplains/grasslands and fit better with the rest of my planned cities). Because I had such a superior army and I was afraid that I might tank my economy filling in former Carthage, I thought the best idea was to just rush Mao as well to raze some cities for gold, ofc get him away from my dream city site, keep him weak, and further promote my army. At the time it seemed like a decent decision, but I think this was my worst failure. Though I needed to get him away from former Carthage, I kept razing his cities for gold to stop the bleeding gold from unit costs and rex-ing into former Carthage that eventually I got to a point of no return where I knew I'd never be able to repair my relationship with him. I would have no trading partners until optics. However, I felt this was ok because I had basically conquered the entire continent for myself really early in the game and it was great land.
-> For a very long time however, I just couldn't get my economy back online. Scientists were my sole research while I planted cottages desperately to get my economy back on track. I couldn't even whip because that meant working less cottages and units would have started to go on strike. So I did what any desperate for gold player would do, I went to raze some more Chinese cities ;) Cultural defenses and massive protective archers made my next jaunt into Chinese territory much more difficult however, and it just wasn't very efficient (unit costs and supply line costs were probably costing me more than the cities gave me for razing them, probably).
-> Slowly but surely however, cottages matured and key techs like currency and CoL were researched which slowly got me out of the red and onto the path of world domination.
-> It was at this point that I started to build up some more military to finally squash China for good. Unfortunately China had researched Feudalism and there was no way I could blast through protective Longbows with Swordsman-even heavily promoted ones, I had crazy units like CRIII C1 Cover that still had like only 10% odds vs them- without sustaining huge losses that couldn't be easily replaced. My production centers were just too far away from the front line.
-> At this point I figured I wasn't doing too bad. I had great land, my economy was starting to shine, and I saw frequent great general messages so I assumed the other continent was embroiled in war and was not very far ahead of me. Boy was I wrong.
-> Joan II reached me about the time I researched Metal Casting, and all I saw from him was a buttload of techs that I didn't have and double my score. I didn't panic because I figured I could catch up. Little did I know he was ridiculously far ahead of me. To put it into perspective, within a couple of turns I had met the other civs (Greece, vassal to Joan, Wang Kong, and Victoria) and Wang Kong had just discovered liberalism. Not only that, but everyone except for Wang Kong was in Judaism (Wang was in free religion). At this point I started to get discouraged. There was a basically a Judaism lovefest going on the other continent and they were all extremely far ahead of me.
-> I still hadn't lost hope though. My economy was skyrocketing and the techs were crazy cheap because I was researching every single one at like 4th civ. When I got my Beserkers I tried again to stomp China off my continent seeing it as my only hope to regain control of this game. But his protective longbows were just too tough a nut to crack. It didn't even matter either because the AP (created by Victoria) ended the war within the first several turns anyway.
-> I was so backward that Joan GIFTED me Nationalism. :crazyeye:
-> When I had teched Rifling and decided to once and for all destroy China (Joan had mech infantry, btw :crazyeye:), Joan had completely the Apollo program. The AP tried to stop the war but I defied it and took the entire continent for myself within like 20 turns.
-> I was highest in land, population, 2nd in score 4th in GNP (although not very far behind the AIs), 2nd in production, 1st in food... but it didn't even matter. Joan had launched his spaceship around the time I reached artillery (~1910ADish).
-> Crazy stuff went down the last few turns of the game. I knew I had lost by that point, but Victoria went apehorsehocky on Wang and nuked him even though they were not on bad terms with eachother. Wang pulled out a cultural win just as Joan was about to reach the moon, and I thought that was pretty amusing. :D For a second there I thought I could pull out a diplo win, I had Wang and myself for about 90% of the votes I needed. Victoria abstained however and ruined that chance...

Now my question is, I seriously have no idea how I could have won that game. Though I certainly didn't make optimal decision at some points in the game generally I think I played pretty well. The other continent was just so far ahead that even if I could surpass their economies there was no way I could beat them to the moon or fight their superior armies. I think the major factor was that they all shared the same religion on their own continent. I felt semi-isolated because I burnt the only bridge I had (although Mao wouldn't have been very helpful anyway, he wouldn't have traded any of his techs to me because he would have perceived a monopoly on them. Or would he? Need advice from other players on this one).

So basically what I'm asking for... I detailed most of my major decisions in the game, does anyone have some advice on what I could have done better?

I attached a save from a couple turns before Wang got victory. Keep in mind that by this point I knew I had lost and was just hitting space so I could end the game. I stopped caring what cities built and basically just ordered random stuff built all over the empire. But you can see how I decided to specialize my cities, (Chinese cities are new though, I didn't really build any improvements over them.) so any comments on that and maybe city spacing would be nice. I use BUG/Blue Marble, I'm not sure if that effects if you can open the save or not.
 

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Some screenies would be much better that a detailed write-up like this, also that realy helps too.

Do you still have a 0AD and 1000 AD save? If so, could you upload that?

I could not have a look at your save as I am at work right now. It seems to me like you maybe did not use the space given to you properly. Maybe you were indeed far behind at one point, but the key into getting back at the game is teching key techs to trade with the AI.

You say you met some civs after metal casting. That means you could have met them with workboats earlier. Had you done so you would have had a chance to select your trading partners as well as getting a bonus on researching techs yourself - if they are already discovered that is. Once you can get your hands on a tech that no one has yet, you can trade it around and fill in the missing techs you skipped.

Also you may need to have another look at your warring strategies. How on earth can you attack mech inf with riflemen? At that point you may need to consider that the game is lost or try for a non-military victory, but taking 10 to 1 losses is a big nono.

The game was lost around 1910 you say. That is about par on emperor, and had you had a better trading partner you could do this as well, but it was not meant to be this game it seems.

I cannot get into more detail right now as it is hard to tell how well you played the map, but in general you want to grab some nice trading techs - MC or aestetics or somesuch - and trade that around. Grabbing a Great Scientist and bulbing philosophy is also nice as it may provide some good trade bait. You can use these techs to get back in the game, even if the outlook was not too good as in your case.

You may also read some write-ups on these boards to see how the 'pro's' play to get an idea of what level of play you should aim for.
 
looks like you were doing everything strategically right!
It's hard to say domething from just reading words, not looking at screenies or saves.
I think you problem is not having enough siege, and lack of micromanagement. How long did it actually take you to get your economy back on track after killing Hanni? Am i right thinking you razed his capital despite it being a great commerce city?
 
Btw, can you upload the 4000BC initial save maybe? I cannot promiss anything but I may have a go at it and show you what I did.
 
You say you met some civs after metal casting. That means you could have met them with workboats earlier. Had you done so you would have had a chance to select your trading partners as well as getting a bonus on researching techs yourself - if they are already discovered that is. Once you can get your hands on a tech that no one has yet, you can trade it around and fill in the missing techs you skipped.

I was separated by ocean from the other continent. I had metal casting. They had optics.
Also you may need to have another look at your warring strategies. How on earth can you attack mech inf with riflemen? At that point you may need to consider that the game is lost or try for a non-military victory, but taking 10 to 1 losses is a big nono.

Heh I didn't attack the mech infantry. Firstly they were on an entire other continent loads of techs ahead of me. I didn't ever seriously consider a military victory. I did leverage my military to to gain control of MY continent because "land is power". But it was too little too late.
Soon after I met the other continent I felt that any type of victory was futile, anyway. Joan was teching at a monster pace and was starting the space race when I had barely gotten galleons. Even if I could somehow stop him, Wang was also nearing a cultural victory. That left diplo. Considering the entire other continent was a Judaist lovefest all game that didn't seem very plausible either. I did manage about 90% of the votes required for a diplo win, but I couldn't convince Victoria to vote for me.



I cannot get into more detail right now as it is hard to tell how well you played the map, but in general you want to grab some nice trading techs - MC or aestetics or somesuch - and trade that around. Grabbing a Great Scientist and bulbing philosophy is also nice as it may provide some good trade bait. You can use these techs to get back in the game, even if the outlook was not too good as in your case.
That was the thing though, I didn't have any trading partners. Even if I could get juicy techs like that, Mao wouldn't trade with me regardless of the war I had with him (I think), and anyone else was leagues ahead of me in techs.

looks like you were doing everything strategically right!
It's hard to say domething from just reading words, not looking at screenies or saves.
I think you problem is not having enough siege, and lack of micromanagement. How long did it actually take you to get your economy back on track after killing Hanni? Am i right thinking you razed his capital despite it being a great commerce city?

Yes I razed his capital. Because it was in a suboptimal location. The land was great but the city placement wasn't. As for the micro, yes that is a weak point of mine. I would say that I managed it decently though. Having a broken economy after war and REX-ing doesn't seem like that unusual to me, but I think I did waste some time trying to get it back on track. What do you usually do after such a situation? I just tried to get to Currency/CoL as fast as I could while leveraging some instant 3commerce river cottages from financial.

Here are some saves from the game.
 

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-> I started on a continent with Mao and Hannibal.

that is not semi isolated. You always need to weight value of killing someone in three guy situatiuon.


Carthage had exactly the opposite, basically a dream capital with nearly all riverside Flood Plains/grasslands, cows, and some other food resource afaik.
So you burnt it because you didn't like it?
I beelined bronze working
AH should be done first.

no copper or horses anywhere nearby
I thought it was possible to make culture fight on Han's horses but I tried and not a chance really. Maybe trying choke with warriors into archers , but this meh strategy.

So I was basically stuck with a powerhouse production capital with nothing to build.
Setller and workers there is enough land for REX.

I painfully researched iron working
Without gems under jungle or something like that i would never research it myself. IMHO, rex into writing via AH as you do not have enough cottagable land overall. IF you want to put production and forests at good make Oracle. CoL would be choice since guys on your continent are unlikely to found religions. Guess shrininjg it would not be bad option later.

would have no trading partners until optics.
So you skipped CS and bulbed optics with GS,right?:lol:

I had basically conquered the entire continent for myself really early in the game and it was great land.
I saw china alive at 880AD.

I had crazy units like CRIII C1 Cover that still had like only 10% odds vs them- without sustaining huge losses that couldn't be easily replaced. My production centers were just too far away from the front line.
And where was your siege?

IMHO, grab whatever you could and push with siege+maces should have sealed the deal. Although that is pretty tough map for difficulty you are not comfortable with.
 
that is not semi isolated. You always need to weight value of killing someone in three guy situatiuon.

So you would have kept Carthage around?

So you burnt it because you didn't like it?

No, I burnt it because it was in a suboptimal location. I moved it something like 1 tile over.

AH should be done first.

Sorry, bad choice of words. I'm sure I did both Agriculture & AH first.



Without gems under jungle or something like that i would never research it myself. IMHO, rex into writing via AH as you do not have enough cottagable land overall. IF you want to put production and forests at good make Oracle. CoL would be choice since guys on your continent are unlikely to found religions. Guess shrininjg it would not be bad option later.

Yeah, it seemed a shame to have all those forests and nothing really to chop with them. But the initial capital just looked like such a production city to me that it seemed unwise to chop down those forests.


So you skipped CS and bulbed optics with GS,right?:lol:

Didn't know you could do that. I thought you had to have Machinery and all those other techs before you could get optics. Seems a strange tech for a GS to bulb :crazyeye: or are you joking?


I saw china alive at 880AD.

Yes, but the continent was essentially mine. China was ripe for the taking anytime I really wanted to commit to it. My economy was just beginning to recover so why would I take on all those toxic (maintenance wise) cities when I could just let Mao develop them for me and then take them when I was ready? China wasn't a threat whatsoever the entire game.


And where was your siege?

IMHO, grab whatever you could and push with siege+maces should have sealed the deal. Although that is pretty tough map for difficulty you are not comfortable with.

I don't think I had even researched construction at that point. :lol:

I'd love for someone to play this map through and show me how it's done.
 
Okay. i don't want to earn reputation of total jerk, so i played fast one.

Fast means not lot of thought and bad micro at some points. [third city will hate me for :whipped: fund raising:lol:]
Of course i had preview of map so that made thinks easier, still did not made something like moving cap to grab that fish or skipping BW for Alpha beeline.

Still you have horses you have holy city and some defenses... I am really lazy to write so you will have tow ork with log as i always do with really clever guys games.

Oh, and in case you fear crashes you have Code of Laws. So as soon as someone gets Alpha you can start pumping swords for offense.
 

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