• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Session #7: Recursive's Voting Record

Recursive

Already Looping
Moderator
Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2017
Messages
5,817
Location
Antarctica
I've decided to do one of these again. The standard disclaimers from last time apply.
I was debating doing one of these. Being the current lead developer, my opinions may have disproportionate influence on the voting despite the fact that balance is not my strongest suit (that's part of why I hired the Magi to assist me in making those judgement calls).

However, someone pointed out that people will be able to see my votes anyway, so by explaining why I voted a certain way, people will have a better base of understanding from which to make their own decisions. This logic seems valid to me.

(Also I can steal all of @Stalker0's hard work by copying and pasting his thread links. :lol:)

Please take my opinions with a grain of salt, not as gospel. I don't promise to do this for every session going forward.

(7-01) Make Villages Buildable on Marsh
Nay. I agree with Stalker that Marshes are meant to be cleared, not used (and also with the argument that marshes were very inhospitable places to live before modern times).

(7-02) Rename Tyranny to Co-Prosperity Sphere
Neutral. I like Tyranny better descriptively, but I mildly like the euphemism of it.

(7-03) Rename Trade Organization to Containment
Yea. Sounds cooler.

(7-04) Autocracy Commerce Raiders Rework
Yea. A boost to Naval Ranged sounds good (and might help the AI in lategame naval conquests). More interesting than +10% from Seaports, which has some Industry overlap.

(7-05) Aluminum Tech Requirements
Yea. I agree it's better for a resource to be discovered either before or at the same time as it can be used. A little weird otherwise.

(7-06) Oil and Oil Well Tech Requirement Proposals
Yea to 6a. Same rationale as for 5. azum4roll's proposal seems more well-thought to me due to the Refineries issue.

(7-07) Polynesian Maori Warrior Proposals
Yea to 7a. The scout concept is neat, but the AI doesn't handle scouting units well and I feel like the unit will become irrelevant fairly quickly (it's not that impressive when unlocked, either). I'm more in favor of buffing the aura to compensate for the loss of the Moai aura, and the mild synergy with Fishing Boat creation is a nice bonus.

(7-08) Polynesian UA & UI (Moai) Proposals
Yea to 8b.

Proposal 8: I don't like improvement combat auras as they're not AI friendly, I don't like keeping the +2 :c5food: on the UA and I don't think it's enough of a buff. I'm fine with +2 :c5production::tourism: on the Moai instead of the Gold. There was some criticism of how I bundled these proposals together, but I don't think there was an easy way to handle (part of a mega proposal that slightly modifies Polynesia's UA + a proposal that modifies Polynesia's UI + two proposals that modify both the UA and the UI) without creating a poll that makes people's head spin. I think the current vote will give us a good idea of where the wind is blowing, and we can adjust from there.

Proposal 8a: Culture to Fishing Boats is too strong considering Melee units can create them. Turn 1 Culture bonuses have been considered too OP in the past, which is why we removed them from China. This isn't quite Turn 1 but it's pretty close.

Proposal 8b: :c5production: to Fishing Boats seems better in terms of allowing Polynesia to better balance its coastal starts. Stalker does have a point about it being powerful with God of the Sea, but I feel like this is still a step in the direction of better balance in the future, which is generally how I vote. Rebalancing a pantheon is an easier question to deal with, and rebalancing sea resources might be a good idea, but that's not Polynesia's issue. The extra Sight feels nice; more impactful than just +1, which feels more UA worthy. +2 :tourism: is a softer buff than also adding :c5production:. I think we should add this and go from there.

(7-09 & 7-10) Shoshone and Huns Proposals
Yea to 9a. I don't like 9 because growing to radius 6/7 will rarely happen considering other players exist, and also 8 settling tiles plus claiming adjacent tiles of the same type feels too powerful on Turn 0. pineappledan's variant on this seems more well thought-out to me while still nerfing the encampment. And I think it shouldn't be too difficult to program the AI to pick Ancient Ruins. I'll add it to the roadmap. I still would like to remove the Encampment's combat aura rather than just nerfing it and restore the +20% defense bonus, but that can be a proposal for next session. 9a would leave both in better shape than now for future balancing, I think.

I don't like either of the resource proposals in conjunction with this balancing. Maybe next time.

(7-11) Hospital and Medical Lab Rework Proposals
Weak Nay. I agree with Stalker that Specialists already get a lot, and I feel like this overlaps with Freedom too much. I think the Science is fine, though (gives a way to compete for SV).

(7-12) Change Connectivity of the Tradition Policy Tree
Yea. Never liked the way the Tradition tree was oriented that much.

(7-13) CS Quest "Conduct Intelligence Ops" Restricted to 1 [Spy Update 1]
Yea, considering how much of an investment it is now.

(7-14) Spy XP & Leveling Proposals
Yea to 14a. I've gone back on forth on this one a lot because I do like the micro of spy leveling and the strategy that provides, but with the current system being probably the best we're gonna get, I agree that Spy XP doesn't balance super well throughout the eras with it. 14a seems like the cleanest way of removing that element. I also particularly like the buff to Diplomats.

(7-15) Pilfer Religious Relics Mission Proposals
Yea to either. I think it needs a bit more kick to it, although -100% Faith is gonna hurt if it hits the capital so I'm less sure there.

(7-16) Kidnap Specialists Mission Proposals
Yea to 16. I don't really see the harm in adding a few extra GPP by targeting weak cities. By the time you're using spies to do this rather than higher priority stuff, the extra GPP won't matter too much anyways. Could be a niche strategy with Austria or something. Worth noting that this mission might be bugged in its duration; this will need to be fixed if so. EDIT: Fixed!

(7-17 & 7-18) Spy Passive Bonus Proposal & Great Leap Forward Proposals
Yea to 17 and 18a. +100% Science from Surveillance feels way more thematic to me than +100% NP; it's Order (aka the Soviets) that were most famous for their spying. Less sure about 17 as I do like weighing the strategic decision of keeping the spy in longer versus running a mission immediately, but with spy XP (and therefore imprisoning spies instead of killing them) likely being removed, you do still get this choice, so I'm fine with it.

(7-19 & 7-20) Constabulary and Police Station Proposals (& Counterspy Buff)
Strong Yea to both. This feels like a much needed change, especially for counterspies.

(7-21) Sabotage City Production Mission Redesign Proposals
Yea to 21a. 21 is fine, I just feel like 21a allowing you to occasionally use it for something else if you might want is nice by giving an additional strategic option.

(7-22) Allow Non-Recon Units to Pick Up Ancient Ruins
Nay. The AI never uses its starting Warrior to explore, which gives the human an early advantage if this passes, and thematically it makes more sense for explorers to be doing the Indiana Jones work. I think a tip or something is a better way of informing players of this mechanic.

(7-23) Council of Elders Rebalance
Nay. I find it fun as-is, and both require you to spread effectively to get the benefits, the current way is just more direct about it.

(7-24) Supply Cap Penalty Rework
Nay. I feel like the current penalty doesn't have enough bite, especially lategame, and that if we want to keep army sizes reasonable, a strong supply penalty is the way to go...but I feel like reducing Food could lead to a vicious cycle of reducing Population through Starvation, which reduces supply further, which raises the penalty. Better to just double it back to the vanilla penalty of -10% per unit instead of -5%.

Side note: I have decided to develop azum4roll's supply rework as a modmod, to be voted on for integration next session.

(7-25) Carthage Rework Proposals
Yea to 25. I hate 25a, it feels janky, luck-based, exploitable, and treading on Venice's territory. I sponsored it only because a lot of people seem to like it for some reason. 25 makes Carthage more relevant lategame (and a UA should be enduring) but in a different enough way than Portugal. And it's a lot more AI friendly.

(7-26 & 7-27) Tradition & Fealty Scaler Proposals + Fealty Policy Rework Proposals
Yea to 26a and 27a. I like direct Food a lot better than Growth in the early game, and I also like Fealty getting a Faith scaler. If Unhappiness makes this less useful, we could see about adding a policy ability or something to limit Tradition's Unhappiness from Growth.

27a feels a lot more balanced overall than 27; sorry hokath, I did like the Historic Event idea. I think the :c5happy: -> :c5culture: ability needs to be removed outright since it's so weak.

(7-28) God of the Sea: Remove +2 Food from Coast
Yea. Coastal cities don't suffer from want of Food.

(7-29) Porcelain Tower Changeup
Yea. Seems reasonably strong with a free GS and +10% Science, and I like removing the conditional effect based on the Research Agreement setting as it simplifies the game.

(7-30 & 7-31) Summer Palace Buff & Diplomats Ignore Open Borders
Yea to 7-30 (you're unlikely to be using your capital to produce Diplomatic Units), nay to 7-31. There is limited counterplay to Diplomatic Units as-is with how fast they move, and as Stalker said, we added these restrictions for a reason. A Wonder allowing you to bypass one restriction, sure (even with the buff I'd say it's average in strength), but removing it entirely prior to the lategame feels like a return to Gold gifting.

(7-32) Musketman -1 CS
Yea. Archer units aren't meant to be too tanky.

(7-33) Skirmisher & War Chariot RCS Proposals
Yea to 33. Entirely agree with Stalker's rationale.

(7-34) Town Gains Culture to Mirror the Village
Yea. Great Merchants are weak and this is a small buff which is thematically consistent with the Village. I think it's fine.

(7-35) Merchant Specialist Buff Proposals
Yes to 35a. I think this is more balanced than combining both (wary of yield inflation), and with an extra boost at Guilds they'll be more powerful early on anyway.

(7-36) Promise Not to Attack Applies to Both Parties (Troops Near Border)
Yea, adding more strategy to diplomacy is always something I'm interested in.

(7-37) Remove Faith -> Production Conversion from the Order Building
Yea, feels like too many abilities on one building.

(7-38 & 7-39) Authority Rework Proposals
Yea to everything. I like the Discipline change (feels more fun early game and easy for the AI to use) but I otherwise think Authority needs a nerf. A small nerf or a big nerf are both fine with me.

(7-40) Progress Rework Proposals
7-40 or 7-40b. I want to nerf the Production per city as it overlaps with Authority as-is, so I don't like 40a because it preserves it. Nerfing either the Food or the Gold as well, I have less preference about, although I mildly prefer nerfing the Food (less overlap with Tradition).

(7-41 & 7-42) Japanese Dojo Buff Proposals
Yea to 7-41. I think a buff to its conversion rate is fine. I don't like either of the promotion proposals - having a 1 in 8 promotion be a prereq for Medic feels weird, and adding Medic I's ability outright feels too strong to me on top of "stronger when damaged" and "heal on kill".

(7-43) Remove Notification when a City Starts WLTKD
Yea. This one I'm fine with removing as it's not one you need to take action on, and there's already one of those disappearing text notifications plus an icon below the city if you're really paying attention to WLTKD.

(7-44) Remove Notification When a Trade Route from Another Player is Plundered
Nay. The AI gets annoyed at this, so the human should have the right to get the same information. Plus, it warns you of when Barbarians have spawned.

(7-45 & 7-46) Mongolian Khan & Ordo Proposals
Yea to 46. I like the Ordo proposal for QOL & AI-friendliness reasons, but I think it has the potential to be OP. Because of this, I'm not inclined to buff the Khan on top of that. EDIT: I also don't like 45a because the Enhanced Medic promotion, as implemented, doesn't have any medic-related functions, so it's misleading.

(7-47) War Weariness and War Score Affected by Damage on Cities
Yea. I feel like it's too easy to accumulate war score, but that's a separate problem, and this won't make it any worse, just scale it more smoothly. It also fixes the exploit where someone who steals a city at the last minute gets all the war score from it even though you did all the damage.

(7-48) Songhai Nerf Proposals
Yea to 48a. I think if we want to seriously nerf Songhai, we need to curb its river movement. Going after anything else is avoiding the substance of the problem. This does that, especially if 7-49 passes, which it looks like it will. It'll still be powerful with both nerfs, and this overlaps less with the Iroquois.

(7-49) All Civs Gain City Connections Along Rivers
Yea. I feel like settling cities on rivers gives enough incentives already, but I really like the thematic aspect, an early game buff to Gold doesn't seem too bad, City Connections don't offer that much Gold in VP anyway, and if you choose not to build a road, you'll be losing out on the movement advantages. This gives a bit more flexibility to how you place roads, which is an interesting strategic choice.

(7-50) Industrial City Connections
Yea. I liked the Railroads from vanilla BNW and restoring this to some degree seems fun. I don't like changing the name from Train Station to Coaling Station because... I like trains. :) So I'll probably modmod that out. But everything else seems cool.

(7-51) Change Expiry Conditions for Gift Unit Quest
Yea. I see no downsides.

(7-52) Adjusting Some City-State Influence Rewards
Nay! This is a step in the wrong direction. Needs more thought and consideration IMO.

(7-53) Landmarks in City-State Lands Grant Resting Influence Proposals
Yea to 53a. I don't see why not, seems fun. Stealing an Artifact pisses off AIs; that's not really relevant for City-States, but an extra positive incentive couldn't hurt. I think my proposal is more well thought-out in terms of the details, as long as the sponsor does a good job. Hopefully he will!

(7-54) Remove CS Resting Influence Bonuses if War is Declared / City Captured
Yea. I don't think the City-State should consider you their liberator if you're currently raining hellfire down upon them, and having Great Diplomats' influence continue feels more like diplomancy to me. You can still get Influence back if you decide to abort a war, it just won't be as easy.

Also, Austria's UA and the Landmark bonus (since it'll solidly pass) will be retained, the former because it's a UA and that's meant to be powerful and the latter because the monument is still there.

(7-55 & 7-56) AI Difficulty Bonus Change Proposals
Yea to 7-55a and 76. AI empires get a 3x Gold handicap for building World Wonders and triggering Golden Ages (both of which favor Tall) so I think the extra Gold bonus from Great People is a bit much and I'm okay with removing it. I don't like giving the AI more Science and Culture bonuses as they're already reported to be ahead a lot of the time.

With 7-56, I'm willing to give Stalker's idea a try although I'm skeptical of it. I doubt the bonus later on will have much impact (who settles cities that late?) but it doesn't hurt much.

I do think we generally need more testing of difficulty bonuses; I'm adding that to the roadmap.

(7-57) Rename Manhattan Project to Nuclear Weapons Program
Nay. Too iconic to change. (x2)

(7-58) Rename East India Company to Chartered Company
Yea. Not as iconic, and I never liked the name because it doesn't fit well with different map types and (moreso than the Manhattan Project) alternate histories. Chartered Company gives a bit more history to it and is more neutral across European powers.

(7-59 & 7-60) Spy Consecutive Election Rigging Proposals
Yea to 59a. 40% seems reasonably strong while being less OP. Like Stalker, I think Decolonization resetting the rigging counter is overkill. It makes spies in CS much less useful, and that resolution is impactful enough already.

(7-61) Complete the "Complete Kills" Functionality
Yea. Seems fun. If you're gonna play with Complete Kills, why not have them try to create a tiny cute civilization somewhere? :D

We oughta fix the AI issue anyway.

(7-62) Ottomans Nerf
Nay. I don't think enough justification has been given for a 33% nerf.

(7-63) Sea Beggar Prerequisite Tech Change
Yea. Everyone seems in agreement on this one.

(7-64) New Coastal Artillery Promotion for Cannon and Later Siege Units
Yea. Agree with Stalker's rationale; later game naval units are gonna have a lot of combat bonuses anyway.

(7-65) Add Tourism to France's Yield Per Unit Scaler
Nay. I feel like this is going to be way too powerful.

(7-66) Make Forts Pillageable and the Time to Repair Improvements Stop Scaling With Game Speed
Yea. It's AI-friendly and removing the Forts entirely never made sense to me. If we already have the art for it, let's use it.

(7-67) Tourism Modifier Cap Change
Yea. I feel like this'll help encourage DomV over CV a bit. The bugfix is good regardless of whether this passes, of course.

(7-68) Change AI Peace Treaty Behavior - Consistent to All Players in the Same Team
Yea. I wasn't sure how to handle this scenario when I rewrote the peace code, but this seems fine enough as a starting point.

(7-69) Diplomatic Buildings - Count CS you Conquer as Allies for Bonuses
Weak Yea. I've gone back and forth on this; I feel like it could be too strong, but there is indeed a huge opportunity cost to conquering CS, which this could help balance.

After reconsideration, I feel like warmongers have more cities, and thus more bonuses to yields overall; the buff to City-State play helps counter this advantage. Changing my vote on this to Nay.

(7-70) Vassal Unit Levy Proposals
Yea to 70 or 70a. I think either is an improvement; I don't mind getting crappy units so much since you can just upgrade them, and having an incentive for treating your vassal well is something I like.

(7-71) Remove Unit Upgrade Discount and Some Building Science from Military-Industrial Complex
Yea. I feel like a fairly substantial nerf is warranted considering how easy late game war is for a powerful warmonger (and also I don't like the stacking discount with Imperialism). You'd better be managing your economy well if you have so many resources. Also, the military-industrial complex makes things more expensive for the military to buy, not less, that's part of why America's military budget is so much larger than it needs to be. The Science nerf I'm not sure is needed, but I still feel like it's a step in the right direction.

(7-72) Purchase Cost Reduction Rework Proposals
Yea to axatin's proposal, just for consistency. I don't feel like this will have too much of an impact, and a nerf to the crazy numbers is good.

(7-73) "To the Glory of God" Belief Buff
Nay. It's already really, really good.

(7-74) Spain Tweaks... Again
Yea. Strongly in favor of removing the dummy building, the buff is reasonable, and I think it's a pretty well thought-out proposal for being the first one to alter Approach biases. :)

(7-75) Giant Death Robots Standalone, Limited to 2 & Cost More
Nay. I think I might agree to just a limit, but the 4000 Production cost on top of that is too big a nerf IMO.

(7-76 & 7-77) Mayan Kuna & Atlatlist Proposals
Yea to both. I think the Atlatlist CS can be nerfed since the Maya benefit substantially from rough terrain anyway (Indirect Fire, which can no longer be picked). The Science nerf seems reasonable.

(7-78) Standardize City Tile Yields
Yea. This is a buff, but it's a reasonable one and makes settling on a resource less of a bad choice. The consistency is also nice.

(7-79) Make Special Forces Cheaper
Yea. No reason they should be so expensive.

(7-80) Bomb Rack, Aerial Torpedo Buffs
Yea. Planes are meant to be powerful (that's why interceptors exist) and with how high lategame CS tends to be with all the bonuses, you need a big bonus to penetrate enemy defenses.

(7-81) Hand-Axe Buff (+1 CS and +1 RCS)
Nay. Buffing Turn 2 barbs seems like a bad idea. They're less powerful on purpose.

(7-82) Fill In Scouting Promotions with Water Equivalents
Yea. Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me, more of a tedium reduction. Polynesia will benefit substantially, but that's fine, they're Polynesia and superpowered scouting units rarely have an impact on the battlefield.

(7-83) Korea Nerf
Nay. I don't like only nerfing Great Works and not GPTIs.
The whole point is to make the bonus agnostic to Great People.

(7-84) Lebensraum Rework
Yea. More AI friendly. I'm going to be making some edits to tile ownership to make this work a little more intuitively.

(7-85) Alert When AI's Non-Expansion Agreement Has Expired
Yea. I can see why you'd want to know this and it's not too hard to implement.

(7-86) God of the Sun Tweak Proposals
Yea to 86a. Seems more balanced and thought-out overall.

(7-87) Rename Oxford University Proposals
Yea to 87a. I never liked the Oxford University name, but Institute of Science feels too generic.

(7-88) New Supermajority Vote Threshold
Deliberately abstaining from this one because I don't want to influence the vote. The vote here will not be interpreted the same way as all the others, as I noted in the thread.
 
Last edited:
"Deliberately abstaining from this one because I don't want to influence the vote. The vote here will not be interpreted the same way as all the others, as I noted in the thread."
Perhaps you could vote at the very end so as not to influence others ?
 
Did you mean Yay or Nay. Your rationale sounds more like a nay vote to me.
Nay. Fixed.
"Deliberately abstaining from this one because I don't want to influence the vote. The vote here will not be interpreted the same way as all the others, as I noted in the thread."
Perhaps you could vote at the very end so as not to influence others ?
Perhaps.
 
Yea to either. I think it needs a bit more kick to it, although -100% Faith is gonna hurt if it hits the capital so I'm less sure there.
Faith generation is actually quite spread out across the empire. Holy City gets more, but not as extreme as Culture, Science, and Tourism.
I think if we want to seriously nerf Songhai, we need to curb its river movement. Going after anything else is avoiding the substance of the problem.
For human players, the free Amphib on everything is very powerful. A Mandekalu Cavalry with Drill under a ship hits like a truck and cannot be damaged.
(7-72) Purchase Cost Reduction Rework Proposals
Yea to axatin's proposal, just for consistency. I don't feel like this will have too much of an impact, and a nerf to the crazy numbers is good.
Consistency is having modifiers stacked additively :/
 
Last edited:
(7-59 & 7-60) Spy Consecutive Election Rigging Proposals
Yea to 59a. 40% seems reasonably strong while being less OP. Like Stalker, I think Decolonization resetting the rigging counter is overkill. It makes spies in CS much less useful, and that resolution is impactful enough already.
This prompted me to change my vote. Resetting the counter I agree with only if the other changes don't happen, and--being stupid--I had voted for both.

(7-01) Make Villages Buildable on Marsh
Nay. I agree with Stalker that Marshes are meant to be cleared, not used (and also with the argument that marshes were very inhospitable places to live before modern times).
I can't believe you've hitched yourself to the anti-marsh bandwagon. If Marshes are meant to be cleared, why do multiple (even fairly late) buildings buff their yields? The marshes yearn to be free!
 
(7-45 & 7-46) Mongolian Khan & Ordo Proposals
Yea to 46. I like the Ordo proposal for QOL & AI-friendliness reasons, but I think it has the potential to be OP. Because of this, I'm not inclined to buff the Khan on top of that.
I disagree with part of your argument here. 46a does not buff the Khan in any meaningful way. It just moves the heal from being part of the promotion, to being put on medic I and II.
The only technical buff happen if you allow your khan to be targeted by ranged attacks.
 
I can't believe you've hitched yourself to the anti-marsh bandwagon. If Marshes are meant to be cleared, why do multiple (even fairly late) buildings buff their yields? The marshes yearn to be free!
No. :)

I disagree with part of your argument here. 46a does not buff the Khan in any meaningful way. It just moves the heal from being part of the promotion, to being put on medic I and II.
The only technical buff happen if you allow your khan to be targeted by ranged attacks.
You mean 45a. And alright - but then the Enhanced Medic promotion doesn't have any medic-related bonuses on it, so the name is misleading. Still don't like.

Faith generation is actually quite spread out across the empire. Holy City gets more, but not as extreme as Culture, Science, and Tourism.
Hmm, alright. That makes me feel better about my vote.

For human players, the free Amphib on everything is very powerful. A Mandekalu Cavalry with Drill under a ship hits like a truck and cannot be damaged.
Seems like a more general AI problem.


Changed Votes:
Consistency is having modifiers stacked additively :/
I think we need to decide on a general attitude towards how we handle stacked modifiers. Changing my vote to Nay.

I've also decided to change my vote on (7-69).
(7-69) Diplomatic Buildings - Count CS you Conquer as Allies for Bonuses
Weak Yea. I've gone back and forth on this; I feel like it could be too strong, but there is indeed a huge opportunity cost to conquering CS, which this could help balance.

After reconsideration, I feel like warmongers have more cities, and thus more bonuses to yields overall; the buff to City-State play helps counter this advantage. Changing my vote on this to Nay.
 
Top Bottom