Several historic inaccuracies in Civilization VII

Joined
Jun 20, 2024
Messages
5
Civilization VII has added a lot of new content, and each civilization has gained far more unique abilities than in previous installments, which is great and exciting.
However, this has inevitably led to more cultural misrepresentations.
As a Chinese, I can only point out the cultural misrepresentations involving China, but I suspect that the same issues may exist in many non-Western civilizations.

Confucius:
Keju (imperial examination) first originated in the Sui Dynasty and became the primary way of selecting officials during the Tang Dynasty, nearly a thousand years after Confucius had died.
Although Confucius' works were considered one of the main texts for the imperial exams, the examinations may also cover a variety of subjects including geography, history, politics, military affairs, law, and document writing.
It is as strange as calling Shakespeare's ability TOFEL.
On the other hand, Keju system absolutely does not produce science. As opposite, many Chinese people believe Keju system is what caused China fell behind during the Industrial Revolution (Smart people focused on writing rather than on technology).
万世师表, "Model Teacher Of All Ages", a phrase used by later generations to praise Confucius, would be a better name for his ability.

Han:
Ren, Yi, Li, Zhi, and Xin are the five virtues spoken of by Confucian.
We have Yi, Li, Zhi in Han's civic tree, but the fourth slot is taken by Junzi. Why not call it Ren? (Junzi is mostly people with Ren virtue)

Chu-Ko-Nu
Chu-Ko-Nu is a famous weapon (mostly because its inventor Zhuge Liang was too famous). But Zhuge Liang serves Shu Han, one of the Three Kingdoms.
The relationship between Shu Han and Han is like Byzantine and Rome.
Is Byzantine Dromon a reasonable UU for Rome?
By the way, it is quite strange most Chinese names in Civ 7 are spelled in Pinyin, but Chu-Ko-Nu is still spelled in Wade Giles.

Shi Da Fu:
This list features very few individuals who lived during the Han Dynasty; most lived centuries before, while Wang Yangming born after 1000 years.

Ming:
Mandarin are just civil officials, they have no connection to Unique Merchant Units

Divine Engine Division:
Although this army could be translated as "Divine Engine Division", they are just musketeers.
They are not responsible for scientific research.
Also, I felt it was a misleading translation. This name fits better in Warhammer 40k than real world.
The original meaning of 神机 in Chinese is closer to "amazing tool" than "divine engine". (神机 is also a pun for Cunning Plan in Chinese. This may also be the reason why they are called 神机.)
Imagine you are a soldier in 15th century, would you call your gun amazing tool or divine engine?
Wait, Amazing Tool Division is still a strange name, please simply call them Shen Ji Ying.

Baojia:
If we consider Divine Engine Division's science bonus as a misinterpreting.
I have no idea why Firaxis Games think household registration management could increase science production.

Qing:
Hangshang: Shang means merchant while Hang means exchange house.
Qing Dynasty merchants were prohibited from going out sea.
They only transported goods to designated locations (the 13 exchange houses) in Guangdong and handed them over to foreign trading fleets. They don't create naval trade route.

Chuang Guandong:
The "Ten Great Campaigns" refers to the ten wars won by Emperor Qianlong during his lifetime, most of which were suppressing rebellions.
Chuang Guandong, however, refers to a surge of domestic migration that occurred after the government lost its grip on control in the late Qing Dynasty.
(The Qing government had long restricted population movement, believing it would reduce the incidence of rebellions.)
满城 might be a better name for what "Ten Great Campaigns" unlocks.

I really hope that Firaxis Games can address these issues. It’s better to deal with one Chinese guy's complaint now, than to deal with tons of negative reviews from many in the future.
(If anyone knows the official feedback channels, please let me know. Thank you.)
 
Last edited:
By the way, it is quite strange most Chinese names in Civ 7 are spelled in Pinyin, but Chu-Ko-Nu is still spelled in Wade Giles.
It's about familiarity. I agree that I'd prefer Zhugenu, but most Westerns, if they are familiar with the term, are familiar with Cho-ko-nu from various media.
 
One more thing about Ban Zhao
Though in her time it would have been remarkable for a woman to have left some writings, in today's perspective, Lessons For Women is a book all about encouraging women to pander to gender bias.
I'm afraid this is not a good choice for diversity purposes.
She also has other works that have been passed down through the generations, like 汉书八表.
I don't think it's right to criticize ancient people using modern values, but in any case, such a sexism book is never a good choice.
 
I think most of these were already discussed when the civs and leader were revealed.
I wouldn't go as far as calling them cultural misappropriation though - which implies intention and bad faith on FXS part. I would call them mistakes or inaccuracies. Hopefully, the most obvious ones can be changed.
On the other hand, we have some similar issues with other civs - going for names that the audience may recognize instead of for correct ones. So, some parts might be "wrong" on intention, as the case that Zaarin mentioned, or Mandarin as a merchant unit.
 
It's about familiarity. I agree that I'd prefer Zhugenu, but most Westerns, if they are familiar with the term, are familiar with Cho-ko-nu from various media.

With this said, Age of Empires 4 managed to use the more modern transliteration with no problem at all.
 
Eh, the leaders in Civ are immortal, so having Confucius be linked with the imperial examination is fair enough. It's more like linking Shakespare as a Civ leader with the Royal Shakespare Company.

Also, by way of a perspective from the diaspora, the imperial examination system was rigid, sure, but it did maintain an advanced civilization until it didn't. And it spawned less rigid systems modeled on it that are still around in other parts of East Asia - which, ironically, might have had some influence from Western management systems (started by the East India Company) that were supposedly inspired by the imperial examination system.
 
Qing:
Hangshang: Shang means merchant while Hang means exchange house.
Qing Dynasty merchants were prohibited from going out sea.
They only transported goods to designated locations (the 13 exchange houses) in Guangdong and handed them over to foreign trading fleets. They don't create naval trade route.
Wouldn't the naval trade route represent these foreign fleets resulting from the merchant's action?
 
With this said, Age of Empires 4 managed to use the more modern transliteration with no problem at all.
AoE4 started so promising, got worse with every patch, and finally just descended to "What if the HRE but gold?" :rolleyes: Lovely sound design, though, both the general ambience and the unit dialogue, but I understand they were criticized by some Chinese players who obviously didn't understand the Middle Chinese. Which is why Andrew Johnson and others talk about having to balance player expectations with how they present leaders. A lot of us here (me!) are consistently disappointed that Elizabeth I is portrayed as staid and posh with a modern upper class London accent, but the general public expects Cate Blanchett.
 
AoE4 started so promising, got worse with every patch, and finally just descended to "What if the HRE but gold?" :rolleyes: Lovely sound design, though, both the general ambience and the unit dialogue, but I understand they were criticized by some Chinese players who obviously didn't understand the Middle Chinese. Which is why Andrew Johnson and others talk about having to balance player expectations with how they present leaders. A lot of us here (me!) are consistently disappointed that Elizabeth I is portrayed as staid and posh with a modern upper class London accent, but the general public expects Cate Blanchett.
There are a host of historical accuracies that would be confusing to modern gamers.

My favorite would probably be Frederick the Great of Prussia, often posted as a potential 'German' Leader.
Except, what language would you have him speak?
He NEVER spoke German (famously, said he spoke it only to his dogs), His first language for conversation, communication and diplomacy was French!

And, frankly, even if you had him speaking Prussian German, to modern Germans it would sound peculiar - the Prussian dialect, at least back in the 1960s to 1980s when I was in (West) Germany, was regarded as 'schräge Deutsch' - 'bent' German, a slang expression for something peculiar or very different (schräge Musik was one of the first terms used to describe American Jazz before WWII)
 
There are a host of historical accuracies that would be confusing to modern gamers.

My favorite would probably be Frederick the Great of Prussia, often posted as a potential 'German' Leader.
Except, what language would you have him speak?
He NEVER spoke German (famously, said he spoke it only to his dogs), His first language for conversation, communication and diplomacy was French!
And Elizabethan as well as early Colonial American English sounded similar to a really terrible Stage Irish. I was actually very pleasantly surprised that Eleanor spoke Occitan in Civ6--as would any Plantagenet English leader. With Frederick apparently coming to Civ7 for his first vocalized appearance, it will be interesting to hear what language he speaks.
 
I think most of these were already discussed when the civs and leader were revealed.
I wouldn't go as far as calling them cultural misappropriation though - which implies intention and bad faith on FXS part. I would call them mistakes or inaccuracies. Hopefully, the most obvious ones can be changed.
On the other hand, we have some similar issues with other civs - going for names that the audience may recognize instead of for correct ones. So, some parts might be "wrong" on intention, as the case that Zaarin mentioned, or Mandarin as a merchant unit.
I think they are indeed cultural misappropriations. Only one confirmed Chinese leader and it's fudging Confucius as opposed to any of the many actual, influential emperors, communicates the same "we don't know about China and can't be bothered to learn" vibe that Mao in Civ I did.

Which is an absolute step backward from the previous games.

The leader choices this game are awful.
 
I think they are indeed cultural misappropriations. Only one confirmed Chinese leader and it's fudging Confucius as opposed to any of the many actual, influential emperors, communicates the same "we don't know about China and can't be bothered to learn" vibe that Mao in Civ I did
Confucius was extremely influential. So was Mao for that matter.
 
And Elizabethan as well as early Colonial American English sounded similar to a really terrible Stage Irish. I was actually very pleasantly surprised that Eleanor spoke Occitan in Civ6--as would any Plantagenet English leader. With Frederick apparently coming to Civ7 for his first vocalized appearance, it will be interesting to hear what language he speaks.
I am actually surprised that they went with Medieval Spanish for Isabella in Civ7, especially considering that Modern European Spanish was used for her portrayal in Civ5 and the general expectation in Latin America and Spain that she would speak as a "Modern Spanish Queen" would speak. I am glad that they went with historical accuracy this time around rather than general expectation.

The same happened with Simón Bolívar back in Civ6. In-game, he used lots of words that would sound archaic to modern Spanish speakers in Colombia and Venezuela, but would have been quite common in the colonial period. In fact, he used various words that some contemporary people in Latin America would associate with European Spanish. Again, the devs went with historical accuracy despite general expectations and I thinks that's great.
 
AoE4 started so promising, got worse with every patch, and finally just descended to "What if the HRE but gold?" :rolleyes: Lovely sound design, though, both the general ambience and the unit dialogue, but I understand they were criticized by some Chinese players who obviously didn't understand the Middle Chinese. Which is why Andrew Johnson and others talk about having to balance player expectations with how they present leaders. A lot of us here (me!) are consistently disappointed that Elizabeth I is portrayed as staid and posh with a modern upper class London accent, but the general public expects Cate Blanchett.
Player expectations vs. presentation is exactly why AoE IV has gone the way it has 😅

(speaking as someone who loved the original campaign designs, even if the mission design was very RTS 101)
 
Player expectations vs. presentation is exactly why AoE IV has gone the way it has 😅

(speaking as someone who loved the original campaign designs, even if the mission design was very RTS 101)
Yes, I enjoyed the game on launch, but every patch sapped out a little more of the flavor and made everything more generic.
 
Top Bottom